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On the 'Net since 1994
Rheem Air Conditioner & Furnace
Unpleasant experiences with companies / organizations. Does this suck?Installed 8-20-2012 by:
Hill Service
& Installation
980 W. Pages Lane,
West Bountiful,
UT, 84047
(801) 860-0655
HillHeatingAir@hotmail.com
Google it
Steve Hill is replacing the old air conditioner with a new Rheem unit. Aug 2012.
Rheem Air Conditioning
PO. Box 17010
5600 Old Greenwood Road
Fort Smith, Arkansas,
7291Summary of results The work done by the contractor didn't pan out as planned.
It was an omen when I asked this man, Steve Hill, when he replaced the old air-conditioner -- I asked him to tack the loose copper coolant & return lines up against the house. Those lines had never been installed correctly. That pair of copper pipe had been laying on the ground and its foam insulation is 18 years old. Steve said, “That’s not going to go anywhere.” And he didn’t have any new foam jacket to replace the old insulation with, either.
When I hear that, I always think, that ain’t going nowhere is code for I don’t want to do an accurate, correct job -- don’t bother me.
Seemingly, Steve was in a hurry; he didn’t honor my request and the poor job in his installation manifested itself when I turned my new Rheem unit on.
It whistled! A ghostly whistling sound (Listen to it ) emanated from the registers in my house. Eventually it dawned on me to Google this problem, and I discovered that this kind of thing happens when there is a leak somewhere in the ducts.
I emailed Steve and he returned. The problem lay in the seal of the housing of the thing which works like a radiator but in reverse, through which the coolant fluid flows. That duct is sealed with -- duct tape, of course. This radiator, or coil as it’s called, is attached to the furnace’s ducts, which in my case are serviced by an 18 year old Lennox “Pulse 21” furnace.
He padded down the loose, silvery duct tape which is supposed to seal the junction between the house’s air ducts and the coil’s enclosure -- that reverse radiator's tin box. And the whistle stopped whistling!
“This tape is not a good as it used to be”, he said, or something that effect. I think it’s that he just wasn’t prudent in its application. Steve had taped the three easily accessible sides of this duct and he did not apply tape to the back, which would have been more difficult, but not impossible to to do or to reach.
"A poor workman finds fault with his tools", my father used to say. I remember that Stevw had been in a hurry to leave after he had finished this installation on the first day when he was here.
After he had silenced the whistle, Steve opened a pane in the furnace and spot-tied a limit-switch down, so that the blower motor would continue to run when that panel is removed. This was to allow the furnace to increase its air flow from furnace room into the return air ducts, he explained. This would help with the problem about which I complained, that this new air conditioner isn’t cooling my rooms properly (see below).Later, I discovered that the copper pipes which should have been brazed were only soldered.
My review The Rheem unit didn't cool my house! Here are temperature data on three hot August days.
And this isn't even trying to cool the entire house -- some registers were CLOSED for this test.
Test results of a new Rheem 14AJM42A01, three days in August 2012.
This unit only cooled at an average of ~1 ℉Installed by
Hill Service & InstallationTemperature readings
Temperature: Notes from the Internet
"What temperature should the air coming out of the vent be for a properly functioning central AC system? A: The air from the vent should be 18 to 22 ℉ lower than the temperature of the air going into the return." -- Wiki.Answers.com
"...measure the supply air temperature at ... the evaporator coil. It should be around 55 ℉. Some experts argue that this is the only accurate way to examine the cooling system and that measuring temperatures across the evaporator coil is unreliable." -- How & Where to Measure Central Air Conditioning Temperatures
"You should see a temperature difference of 14 to 20 ℉ between the air duct and the return air. If the difference is less than 14 ℉" -- LowesCreativeIdeas.com
Email with Hill Service & Installation
Steve Hill promised to me that I would obtain 72 ℉ in the house when the outside temperature is 90 ℉. Instead, this is what obtained (above). I emailed him and he told me that
* My ducts are too small (He should have mentioned this BEFORE the sale!)
* I should not want 72℉ (I don't, but he did say that this unit is capable of that.)
Subject: the temperature has gone down only 2°
From: me
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:44
To: hillheatingair@hotmail.com
Hi Steve,
It's been on for four hours now and the temperature has gone down only 2°. It's still not working. Please email me back, thank you I'm going to turn it off now.
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 20, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Steve Hill <hillheatingair@hotmail.com
Hi,
Like I said, you've got a real challenge with the heat gain that is coming through your windows. However, trust me...just let it run and bring it down to the temperature you have set on your thermostat. (74, I believe...or you could even try 75. That's what we keep ours at and it's very comfortable for us).
I know that it will take a long time to bring it down but once it's there, all it will have to do is maintain that 74 or 75 temperature. Your "On" cycles wont be as long since it will only have to bring the temperature down 1 degree during each "On" cycle. Understand what I mean? Shutting it off and causing the system to have to recover 7 or 8 degrees everytime you turn it back on is definitely going to cause it to run for a very long time before the thermostat is satisfied.
Steve Hill
On Aug 20, 2012, at 11:16 PM, KRP <me
Hi, Steve,
One of my weather predictors on the iPhone says it will be high-80's only, next week -- too low to give this air conditioner a fair test, except for tomorrow, when 93 degrees is predicted. If that obtains, I'll run the test exactly as what I showed you before (see the graphs in previous emails).
It's late August now and soon it may be too late to run a descent acceptance test, unless the weather cooperates.
At present I don't have much faith in this installation but my mind is open and I'll change my opinion if the temperature in the house goes down to 72 degrees on a hot day when it's over ninety degrees outside.
If not, what will be plan B?
Sincerely,
Sent from my iPad
From: Steve Hill <hillheatingair@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: the temperature has gone down only 2°
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:44
Hi,
Thanks for the information. Very detailed and impressive. Ya know Harald, given your circumstances, for example, the high heat gain through your south-facing windows (that you wont cover...hehe) and the less-than-desirable ductwork sizing and venting. (We never talked about this but I feel it's a strong issue as well.). And the fact that you wont just let it run to maintain a 74 or 75 degree space temperature so that your "On" cycles are shorter. Anyways, with all these factors coming into play I really feel that this is the best that you can expect from this system. The equipment itself has been installed properly. Your refrigerant pressures are normal. The system itself is giving you all that it can through your undersized ducts.
To be honest, this is the type of performance I see in a lot of homes. It's rare to find a home where the ductwork has been sized and installed properly and properly matched to the capacitiy of the cooling system and the home is able to get down to 70 or 72 degrees. Your ductwork was sized for a 2 ton system which I think from the very beginning was undersized. It happens a lot!
Like you, I was hoping we could get you into the low 70's even with high 90's temperatures outside, but it looks like the reality is at best we might be able to get you close to or at 75 degrees, which is still quite comfortable in my opinion.
Other than tearing your place apart and upsizing all your ductwork, I don't know what else I can do for you at this point.
Steve Hill
Subject: Re: the temperature has gone down only 2°
From: me
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 04:07
To: Hillheatingair@hotmail.com
Hi, Steve,
I completed the last test yesterday:
Please look at my performance tests of the RHEEM unit below.
Please let me know if this performance is within specs and if this is what you expected.
I appreciate your quick-as-usual replies, thanks.
Attached is a picture, the complete details of my data on this RHEEM. Please study it and let me know. Thanks in advance!
If you have any questions about how I tested, please stop by, call or email me.
UPDATE
I spoke with RHEEM, (479) 646-3411.
The fellow with whom I spoke was about as useless as tits on a boar. Rheem wouldn't lift a finger to help resolve the poor performance of this unit.I mailed a letter to Rheem to ask the company to look at this unit because it's still on warranty an d it's not cooling. I don't think Steve will want to come back to check out this installation.
◄ I noticed that Steve forgot to fasten Scroeder [Schrader] Cap. This, I'm told by my new service technician, can cause a leak. Steve also downsized the tubing running from the Rheem to the coil, didn't braze* it, but instead only soldered it.
And there are some disconnected dangling wires.
Stay tuned...
From: Steve Hill <hillheatingair@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: the temperature has gone down only 2°
Date: August 29, 2012 9:46
Hi Harald,
Cary Walker, a local Rheem distributor, gave me a call this morning.The people from Rheem contacted him about your concerns and want him to come out to your place and look at the installation and operation of the unit.
He wanted me to attend. We were planning on coming over tomorrow at 2. Would that work for you?
Inspected 9-4-2012 by Standard Air Supply Co. 9240 S. 300 W. Sandy,UT. 84047 (801) 84070 SE@StandardPlumbing.com
Here, Steve Hill and Cary Walker double-check the installation. The three of us entered into a heated discussion about the lack of brazing that was done for their installation. I think that if a customer finds that something was done wrong -- as by not adhering to the instructions of the manufac-turer's manual -- the contractor should bend over backwards to make it right, and not make excuses:
Me: The other thing, of course is, in the manual -- your installation manual, of how you're supposed to install it, it says it has to be brazed, not soldered. Correct?
Cary Walker: Yeah, that' correct.
Me: Yeah, this one is only soldered.
Steve Hill: -- Well, it's a recommendation, it's not actual code...
Me: Actually, it says to do it that way, it doesn't say "suggestion"... but we can look at it.
Cary: Either or, it works either way, so...
Me: I like the brazing, it's a lot more solid vibrations, it doesn't knock loose, that's what it says.
Steve Hill: Well, like I said, I've done it for over 20 years and, knock on wood, but I haven't had a leak yet.
Me: So, are you saying that your manual is wrong?
Cary: No, not at all.
Me: Should it be brazed or should it be soldered?
Cary: It can be brazed or soldered.
Me: The manual doesn't say soldered, it just says brazed. Do you think that the manual is wrong?
Cary: No, the manual is not wrong.
Me: OK.
Cary: That's just the way it's worded in the manual...
Me: It's worded as --
Cary: It' worded as brazing.
Me: OK.
Cary: Either or is preferred.
Me: Either or... is what?
Cary: Is preferred.
Me: How can Either or OR be preferred? There's only one thing that can be preferred!
Steve: Allowable...
Cary: Either or will do exactly the same thing.
Me: Really? It will hold as strong? Brazing is as strong a soldering?
Cary: Yes it is, as long as we're using the proper type of solder.
Me: That's not in my experience with brazing and soldering.
Steve: The solder than I use has a higher content silver than pumbing solder...
Cary: Yeah, It's not your standard plumbing solder.
Steve: It's designed for refrigeration type pressures and so...
Me: Doesn't really matter, I'm just saying what you guys' manual says.
(pause)
Me: I was surprised you're trying to talk me out of that brazing thing.
Steve: (chuckle)
Me: Because I think I'd like to have it installed per factory instructions.
Steve: You'd like to what?
Me: I'd like to have it installed per factory instructions. Because we had, you know, we've had some mistakes already,
like whistles, and stuff like that, and it's not cooling properly; so I'm thinking we ought to go by the book.
Steve: The point I'm making is it's not going to hold the pressures any different, I mean, you don't have any leaks.
Me: The pressure is fine as long as it doesn't leak...
Steve: Right...
Me: ... but soldering is weaker than brazing.
Steve: Not if you use a higher silver content on your solder, that's what I'm trying to say.
Me: I see.
Steve: The solder that I'm using is designed for refrigeration.
Me: Ah-ha.
Steve: So, it's not really going to be any stronger than the brazing.
Me: Really?!
Steve: Yeah.
Me: That's not what I was reading about... of course I'm just an arm-chair, you know... air conditioning...
Steve: You're looking at he book, and I'm using it in the field, I mean there's a difference between...
Me: The book and the field?
Steve: Well, What looks good on paper doesn't always seem to translate in the field, either. You know what I'm saying?
Me: Of course it's a lot easier to leave it that way as it would be to change it.
Steve: If it's gonna hold just as strong I don't see the point.
Me: Exactly! If it's gonna hold just as strong there wouldn't be a point and they wouldn't put brazing in the manual!
Steve: Yeah.
Me: It seems like we ought to go by the RHEEM instructions, and not what other people think. That's what I bought, right? I bought that thing!
Steve: I, I can braze it for you -- it's not going to hold different though.
Me: All right, thanks.
No doubt it's more inconvenient to braze than to solder. It seems that my two Air Conditioning apologists are trying to argue that soldering holds pressure as well as brazing. No doubt that's true. But brazing is stronger, resists vibration and lasts longer, that's what I think because that's what the literature says. There's a reason why Rheem's manual wants this puppy brazed and not soldered. Brazing is more expensive and it takes more work at higher temperatures.
Link: See it on Amazon.com
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Comments?
Since 1994
Unpleasant experiences with companies / organizations. Does this suck?Hill Service
& Installation
980 W. Pages Lane,
West Bountiful,
UT, 84047
(801) 860-0655
HillHeatingAir@hotmail.com
Google it
It was against my better judgment to do business with Steve again. A friend, who knows Steve Hill had recommended him to me -- maybe because he was the lowest bidder -- that's why I hired him to replace on old furnace... He installed it, but there was a problem. I emailed Steve:
Steve,
Thanks for letting me escape today, after you'd finished the installation; we had kind of an emergency to retrieve the car from the mechanic before the shop closed. I'll be home all day tomorrow except for a short time in the AM. We have some problems whit what you did:
SEAL
I think I found a solution on the Internet for the air leakage problem around the filter slot. Other people have the same problem. It's not a good idea to mix air from the furnace room with the return ducts of the house. And this can be detrimental to efficiency and cost. I wish you had brought one of those seals. I didn't know about them before. Here's what I ordered today on Amazon.com:
Link FilterLock Furnace Filter Slot Cover
FILTER
Unfortunately, as you can see -- I'm sure you remember from today when you did this thing -- my old filter size, a common one, apparently, which you told me you'd make work, don't work after all as you can see from the picture I made after you left today:
I can't imagine how anyone would think that this would work properly.
This 20 x 24 inch filter protrudes four inches, exactly, beyond the air duct. So, it seems that the proper sized filter s/b 20 X 21 inches. Unfortunately, my Internet search did not find this uncommon size. If you can find it locally, would you be so kind as to bring one proper filter to me tomorrow? And please tell me where I can buy these locally?
The major problem is, of course that the access to the filter is NOT from the side of the furnace which we discussed yesterday. The reason I asked you to come by yesterday is so that we could discuss what would be done today and so that there would not be any surprises as happened with your recent air-conditioner installation. This location is very inconvenient and it's not what we talked about yesterday. I think, that you decided, without prior consultation to install it this way, because it was too inconvenient for you move the gas supply line, which blocked access to the filter on the side which we agreed on before. It was a surprise to me and left me speechless.
PLATE
I think that the cover for the now-extra-sized hole in the floor should have been a thick metal plate, not sheet metal. I know it's glued down, etc... but I'm not going to complain about it now.
EXHAUST
The placement of the exhaust is also not to my liking, nor is it what I expected after discussing it with you yesterday. Your exhaust runs parallel to the exhaust from the existing, second, Lennox furnace and rests in a preexisting hole in the grate through which all these PVC ducts protrude. Though we did not talk about it explicitly yesterday when you were here to explain everything that would be done today, my understanding was that the exhaust tube would be attached to the side of the house in a similar fashion as the preexisting tubes. But that's not what you gave me. Here is what I got:As it is, your PVC exhaust pipe is positioned in the middle of the window-well, unsecured and free to vibrate. There is no foam insulation anywhere and it rests on the sharp edges of the window grating.
It needs to be out of the middle of the window well, PROPERLY mounted to the house wall. How would one expect one to go into this window-well to liberate a skunk or retrieve a cat? (Our cat is blind and had to be retrieved from the bottom of this twice before. This obtrusion will make it worse!) Holly won't hear of this! As it is, it's quite difficult to get the rather large suction tube from my leaf blower down there, what with those inconveniently positioned Air-conditioner conduits. In future, I want to cover these window wells and this new situation makes that nearly impossible. You should have discussed it with me.
I'm sure that the equipment you installed will work fine. The tenants are anxious to try it. I'd written the check for your payment before I got called away at the last minute yesterday, and again I apologize for that. But that gave us a better chance to look at your work. I'll popularize these furnace and air-conditioner installations.CC: Cary Walker SE@StandardPlumbing.com
The filter placement was on the wrong side
but Steve changed it...Before
After
... and it still needed that filter
seal from Build Right Products,
which, incidentally works
quite well...Link FilterLock video
... but in order to change it Steve
had to remove the old gas line
and install a new one (yellow). It had
been inconvenient for him to
do that the first time around,
but we got it done.Before After
Before
After
The furnace's exhaust (T-shape PVC pipe) was awkwardly placed. But Steve fixed it. It had
been inconvenient for him to do that the first time around.
Hill Service & Installation's -- quote and price comparison for a Rheem Ruud Furnace Aug 2012:
Comparing furnaces from Steve Hill with Internet sources
RUUD Furnace Steve Hill
+ UT Tax (6.8%)
Total Cost
RGTS07EMAES
$2,650
$180.20
$2,830
RGTK07EMAES
$3,250
$221.00
A/C AND furnace combo
$3,471
RGTM07ERBGS
$3,550
$241.40
$3,791
RHEEM Furnace: Internet
Shipping (est $)
Total Cost
AVG Internet
Difference
RGTS07EMAES
$1,053
$231
$1,284
$1,274
$10
RGTK07EMAES
$2,689
A/C AND furnace
$231
$2,920
$2,963
($43)
RGTM07ERBGS
$1,909
$231
$2,140
$1,894
$246
Difference:
$1,546
$1,556
$551
$509
$1,898
$1,898
RHEEM Furnace: AVERAGE Price, Internet
RGTS07EMAES
$1,043
$1,180
http://www.acwholesalers.com/Rheem-Natural-Gas-Furnace-Heater-p/13055.htm
$1,053
$970
$970
RGTK07EMAES
$2,732
http://acfactorystore.com/heating_airconditioning/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=716
$2,689
http://www.airconwholesaler.com/product_info.php?products_id=485
$2,774
RGTM07ERBGS
$1,663
$1,752
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rheem-RGTM-75-000-BTU-95-2-STAGE-FURNACE-Variable-Spd-/180564724009
$1,525
Free shipping
$1,909
$1,465
SEARS
http://www.searshomeimprovements.com/heating-cooling/?lst=2656&SID=SHPx20110629xGOOGCONTENTHVAC18MOMIMIC&gclid
=CPKK1Yqg_bECFYW8Kgodm2AANgBack to SUCK-Central
Comments?
On the 'Net since 1994
Unpleasant experiences with companies / organizations.SameDay Heating & Air
145 W 2950 S
South Salt Lake, UT 84115-3433
Ph: 801-SameDay (801-726-3329)
Fax: 801-466-3541
Google it
Same Day Heating and Air, Inc.
Ph: (423) 344-6650
Fax: (423) 344-6651
P.O. Box 23826, Chattanooga, TN 37422BAIT AND SWITCH - For my payment of $79 they only got their foot in my door to try to pitch a sale of a new furnace which I didn't need. Then SameDay Heating & Air's "Comfort Consultant" left me freezing in my unheated house throughout a bitter cold January weekend. That's all I got in exchange for my money and now Same Day Heating is recalcitrant about giving the money back.
I called SameDay Heating & Air (801) 726-3329 upon a recommendation form the local gas company Qwest. For a price of $79, a fellow showed up within an hour to tell me that a motor in my furnace had died. Also, there was some rust on the furnace cabinet, indicating -- whatever -- and I probably ought to buy a new furnace; besides, he said, a second motor in the furnace was likely to fail soon. Within the hour a salesman, Landon Jensen, SameDay's "Comfort Consultant", arrived at my house and he offered to give me a price for a new furnace.
Now it's four days later. The furnace salesman forgot about me, apparently; and there is frost in my living room.
I have a feeling that it's been a bait-and-switch scam on SameDay Heating & Air's part to try to trick me into buying a new furnace, but I could be wrong. The salesman Jensen promised to return with recommendations about furnace models that I could purchase from him. It's been a four days now, in mid-January and I haven't heard from him.
From: Landon Jensen <ljensen@ue-ac.com>
Subject: Furnace problem from Harald Illig
Date: January 28, 2013 11:59:37 AM MST
I'm sorry I didn't get back to you till today, my computer is here at work and I don't have access to email other than this computer. Let me know what you would like me to do for you. If you want me to come over again let me know what time you would like me to come. As of now my schedule is free, however due to weather it may rapidly fill up. So let me know ASAP.
Thanks,
Landon Jensen
Comfort Consultant
SameDay Heating and Air
ljensen@ue-ac.com
Dustin Lund Maintenance
801-597-5044The scare tactic which Same Day Air tried on me didn't work: I got a second opinion and saved thousands of dollars by not listening to this company's "advice". But the advice to purchase an new furnace cost me $79.
My furnace is a Lennox Pulse, 98% efficiency. As luck would have it, a friend recommended that I contact Dustin Lund, and independent contractor who rendered the second opinion. Dustin quickly replaced the blower motor; everything is copasetic now and I didn't need a new furnace after all! It's warm inside again now. Dustin repaired another furnace problem that existed since day one, 20+ yrs ago -- water had been collecting in the improperly installed PVC exhaust pipe (it had been horizontal, without slope).
Same Day Air charges almost twice as much for a service call during normal business hours than its competitor, but I called them anyway because my home was freezing.
I paid $79 dollars and got nothing in return except this silly letter and discount coupons:
Recent complaints about Same Day Heating & Air regarding problems with Product / Service filed with the Better Business Bureau:01/06/2013 Problems
08/15/2011 Problems
02/11/2011 ProblemsAll I got is this letter from Bob Phalon and cheesy coupons.
My refund:
02/05/13 02/12/13 SAME DAY HEATING AND AIR CITUT 79.00
From: Landon Jensen <ljensen@ue-ac.com>
Subject: RE: Furnace problem from
Date: February 14, 2013 3:19:55 PM MST
I'm glad you got your money back for the service call. I took some time to read your blog to see how you felt. I am very sorry that you felt I didn't care about you. I did care about you despite if you told me I did or not. If I didn't care about you I wouldn't have spent the time I did at your house measuring to see what type of equipment would be best. I wouldn't have asked you specifically what YOU were looking for, and what current problems you had in the home. If I didn't care about you I would have just gone to the furnace read what size was in there and listed some prices to corresponding sizes. I do sincerely apologize though for the misunderstanding.
Secondly, My job is to sell new equipment. When a technician tells me and calls me to a home that a homeowner needs a new furnace I assume that you know what I am doing there. It is not my job to repair furnaces/or sale parts for existing furnaces. My job is to sell new furnaces. I again am sorry if that was unclear what my purpose was. I was doing my job.
The last thing I wanted to mention is your blog. While I appreciate a man who keeps records of things that go on in his life; your record seems to conveniently not mention multiple attempts on my part to keep in contact you. I told that on that following Monday I would come by your house. However you sent me an email on Saturday that said this:From: nowscape
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 5:18 PM
To: Landon Jensen
Subject: The Furnace problem from
I have had a few drinks so it's getting warmer in here. I am sorry I forgot to remember what time you say you come back please let me know as soon as possible, Please reply now so that I can be sure you're getting my email.
Thank you kindly in advance for your reply
You sent this on Saturday evening. Unfortunately I didn't have access to my email account unless I am at the SameDay Office. We have recently (this last week) fixed this problem however. So I appreciate you bringing it up. However I sent you this on Monday trying to see what you wanted me to do for you:From: Landon Jensen <ljensen@ue-ac.com>
Subject: Furnace problem from Harald Illig
Date: January 28, 2013 11:59:37 AM MST
I'm sorry I didn't get back to you till today, my computer is here at work and I don't have access to email other than this computer. Let me know what you would like me to do for you. If you want me to come over again let me know what time you would like me to come. As of now my schedule is free, however due to weather it may rapidly fill up. So let me know ASAP.
Landon Jensen
Comfort Consultant
SameDay Heating and Air
ljensen@ue-ac.comAfter I sent this I tried calling a few times (twice) during the week. You never responded until Febuary 1, which was Friday. I did try to contact you multiple times but you never responded. I am sorry though that you felt we didn't take care of you. That is our goal, to take care of everybody. I would appreciate if you would take down all the negative things about me and the company from your blog. We did try to take care of you. We even refunded your money for a service that you did use. We did this in hopes that you would see that we DO take care of our clients and have been doing so for a long time. If we didn't, we would no longer be in business. We gave you the money back to show we don't like when anybody is unsatisfied with our work/ethic.
Please let me know what else I can do to help you.
Landon Jensen
Comfort Consultant
SameDay Heating and Air
ljensen@ue-ac.com
Your email is welcome. Publisher's statement: Inaccuracies will be corrected, if brought to publisher's attention.
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Do these things suck? ~~ Unpleasant experiences with companies and organizations.
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