The Devil vs. Free Agency

By the Author of
The Worst Mormon

Correspondence With An Apologist

Many subjects were covered.
I was interested in talking about...

The Devil's Free will... for Dummies

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997
From: Hayden wbpi@teleport.com

Who wrote the "Mormon Theology", can you please give me their email address?

Kip Hayden

--You already have it :)

Hello,
I am going to comment on your little Mormon Theology article
(http://nowscape.com/mormon/mormons4.htm ). You got some of the
information right on this page, but then again, you got alot of stuff
wrong:

5th Paragraph
"Mormon thinkers believe that a powder flows through His veins,
propelled by air, in an otherwise normal heart."

Where did you get this? Yes, our Heavenly Father does have a body like ours, except that he is immortal, and therefore does not need blood.

But we are unsure exactly about him. This is just one thing, I will write more if you want to know the truth. I would love to tell you more, but I have a headache right now. Talk to you later

Yes, I will make any correction necessary. Please tell me how you know it's not powder. It's not blood; it has to be something!
--Thanks!

Hello, and thanks for replying. Like I said, we unsure of alot of things about or heavenly father, because of a 'veil' that is over our mind which includes all our memories of our pre-mortal life. Jesus Christs body is now like our Heavenly Fathers because he has been resurected.

Beelzebub, the Devil- I have never heard of this so called devil. The devil does not have an earthly body, but he does shave a spirit. In the pre-existants (the state before we came to earth) there were 2 plans.

The 1st was for us to have free agency and enable us to make our own decisions here on earth, we call it the Plan Of Salvation. The 2nd, which was Lucifers (Satan, devil, which ever you prefer) plan, was to make it so we had no free agency, and we practically would have no control of whether we did right or wrong, we would always choose the right. Our Heavenly Father did not like this idea do to the fact that our life on this earth is like a trial to return to our heavenly father, often referred to as a test. Satan refused to go with this idea, he and 1/3 of us (meaning the 2/3 is everyone who has come to earth and those to come) went with our brother Lucifer, and were cast out. They will never recieve a mortal body, they will remain a spirit forever.

I've never known this! It follows from what you say that the devil cannot have free agency. He could never choose to become good!! Wow, that's pretty heavy, my friend. It seems that everything the devil does in NOT under his control, he is exactly like a pre-programmed robot that cannot do other than he is doing because he has no free agency.

And presumably The Heavenly Father knew this ahead of time, when he made the devil, and he knew what the devil he would be up to. This is a new revelation to me and I thank you for telling me about this.Let me know if I understand this right, eh?

Lucifer chose his path, along with 1/3 of the pre-existance. He could have chosen to follow the plan of salvation, therefore he DID choose for himself. He is under his control, and he does not want US to succeed, therefore he tempts us to do evil, so we cannot return to be with our Heavenly Father. No, he is not like a pre-programmed robot, he chose his path.

How can it be said that Beelzebub can WANT anything. Like you said, he has no free will, so he cannot WANT. Please explain.

I did not say that he has no free will, I said that that was the plan he wanted, his plan, so he was cast out. Again you are making things up. Don't jump to conclusions, you must ask first..

I guess I jumped to conclusions. The devil has free will, then. [...] If the devil has free will, then given enough time, say 300 million years, I suppose he could decide to become good. Can the devil become good? Thanks!

Ok, i see your point. [WOW!! -Ed.] I guess he coulld change his mind to be good, but it won't happen.

If it won't happen, then it can't happen!:) ...then he can't change his mind... then he has no free will. You got part of my point, but not the heavy part! If the devil changed his mind, even for just a day, to be good, then it DID happen. But since it won't happen, he CANNOT be good. No free agency for Beelzebub. It's really pretty easy!

:) Thanks for trying to understand what I'm saying.

not true, just because it won't happen doesnt mean it cant happen. I could win the lottery, but it won't happen

So, it COULD happen? The devil could become good? Let's say the devil's chance of becoming good is the same as your winning the lottery. OK? Let's say your chance of winning is 10,000,000 to one -- Against. So, if the devil's chance of becoming good is the same, each time he tries to become good he has a 10,000,000 chance of succeeding. If the devil plays this lottery 10,000,000 times, he will win once. [on average] (That's what one in 10,000,000 means). So the devil, if he has the same odds as your lottery, will likely become good after only 10,000,000 tries. But he can play every day, if he wants to, and he has an eternity.

In such a lottery, if the devil did not win, after playing this lottery in, say, 99,000,000,000, times, or years -- make that EONS, then the chances would not have been like those of the lottery. Perhaps the chances would have been ZERO-to-Ten-Zillion. Zero to ten Zillion is ZILCH: No free will. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your stubborness will be what casts you tell hell.

"You will be dammed if you question." Every religion tells its sheep that, to keep the flock. […]
I'm sorry I misunderstood you again! Don't you see, that if the devil cannot change his mind to be good, that he cannot have free will. So, I read Mormonism, then, that the devil has no free will.

I am tired of talking to one so full of himself and earthly things.

What earthly things? I thought we had been talking philosophy.

you must not have read those scriptures i sent. oh well [...] There you go again, you think of things to much in earthly matters. I used the lottery as an example to the whole picture, you brought it down to numbers and the actual thing, there is a BIG difference there.

You used the lottery as an analogy to explain some principle. Now you say your analogy does not count, because you accidentally chose an analogy that has numbers. Well, my friend when you read up on it, you will find that probability is all numbers! If you did not explain it right, I'll try to understand some better explanation. For now, even without the numbers, it's plains that the Mormons' Beelzebub cannot have free will because he is eternally prevented from changing his mind.

dang it dude, you are pissing me off. look, I will put it in the most simplest terms possible. Lucifer refused to follow the plan of salvation, therefore him and his angels were cast out. HE HAS DONE THIS BY HIS CHOICE! HE HAS FREE WILL!

I refuse to write anymore on this issue because of your distorted mind.

I can understand that he had free will once. But he seems he gave it up. I'm sure of it. He did give it up, because he can't ever willingly decide to be good. It won't ever happen. Right? I think you are wrong to say he has a small chance, like in a lottery. In a lottery it's possible to win, but the devil can't win -- god made it so he can't. God took his free agency, and forced him into eternal evilness. I hope you see the truth of this logic.

Are we suddenly now using earthy language? Joseph Smith spoke Adamic [the heavenly language], as you know, and I know a few phrases, too. In fact about Beelzebub, Smith said the following in Adamic: "Pay nem ettem, atte ibi cuna. Hatteb nui ettate, retta Elena nui. Pay lay ale."

Ok, listen up dude. I don't want you to mail me anymore, you are full of the devil. Obviously I can't do anything to change your mind. Your pride is greater than than I can over come. Hopefully someday the spirit will soften your heart. Good bye

Actually, I have an open mind. Just not so open that my brain falls out. [a quote stolen from Enrico Fermi, or one of those]. I really am able to entertain new ideas.

You never gave me any reasons -- the closest was your Lottery analogy, and I showed you with mere, lowly, numbers that it was a bad way of looking at this. Perhaps you would do best not to think about this any more. I'm happy you stopped writing. I have been wanting to write something about the Mormon Devil on the net, and you have helped in that. I thank you. I will post all and probably most of our correspondence as A web page; tune in soon, you'll see your name in print. I hope you don't mind.

[As it turned out, lots (~80%) was edited (out). I only included the conversation about the devil’s free will. The email conversation took place over a period of 4-5 days in Aug 1997 –Ed.].

I have had a sneaking suspicion that you are not 'just' a fourteen year old boy [as the correspondent claimed –Ed.]. I think you are a grown Mormon, because you say exactly the same thing that grown Mormons tell me. No more. If you really are only Fourteen, it means that you will probably not learn a damn thing by the time you've grown up, because yours can't be distinguished from normal Mormon gibberish.

M'gua! etta hettim num! Pay lay ale. (Adamic: Until we meet over the veil my friend in the fullness of time! Read my lips).

[This correspondence had been going on at a feverish pace; on some days, 5 to 10 email were exchanged within just a few hours. I have never heard from Kip again. -Ed.].

Link: 3 Nephites !

THE Celestial LOTTERY
YA PAYS YER MONEY AND YA TAKES YER CHANCES.

AND WHAT IS THE CELESTIAL LOTTERY?

It's where you wager 10% of your income on the proposition that you belong to the only true church...
The kicker is, it's tax deductible!

CHURCH OF THE LOTTO-DAY SAINTS

Links: The LIAHONA Get the T-shirt