Read email



I bought a web cam. It did not work. I returned it after 3 days.

After they threatened to sue me they started Spamming me.  Does this suck?

In the Spring of 2005 the story of a quarrel between and one of its customers reached my ears. There wasn't much to the quarrel itself, it was about a customer who returned a defective webcam without requesting an RMA first and the vendor stonewalling the refund. It became interesting though when the customer published his correspondence with the vendor on the web. The vendor threatened to sue the customer and actually tried to get him fired from his job, a job which was totally unrelated to the dispute. When that happened, I mirrored the threatened page here. My mail to the vendor where I explain why I mirrored the page is near the bottom of the mirrored page itself.
I forgot all about it until September 2006, when the vendor's wife took a new go at the customer. The customer reacted the same way as before, putting the correspondence on the web. The wife reacted to that as her husband had done before, threatening to sue and to get the customer fired from his job. [...]

I  couldn't help thinking that the entire dispute was totally unnecessary, that the vendor, his wife and the customer were all being unduly stubborn and impolite and that they were all escalating the issue for no good reason at all. At the same time I couldn't quite understand why the wife was so rabid about having her name removed from the web. Google gave the answer to that. As it turned out, when the wife is not threatening her husband's customers to get them fired from their jobs, she works on her image as a trendy DJ, studies law and wants to be a DA [more...]
 ~Zenon Panoussis, 2006

 Links sues me Spam
A Third-Party's perspective
Zenon's comments

More complaints

Read EMAIL about this
Rena Durrant
"Employee turnover was high, one every three months..." (Archive) (mirror site)










10-DAY satisfaction guaranteed ?


The Webcam
   Name - ProShot  1.3 Megapixel

   Plastic case, no-focus lens
   Plugs -- USB, separate microphone jack required
   Picture quality -- below LOUSY
   Camera case -- thin and flimsy
   Camera clamps -- off the hinge, won't sit upright
   Software -- kills other applications
   Refund --

"Cheap" is right!
Then they threatened to sue

A GOOD Example

Comments from

Returning It



From: (on file)
Subject: Norton 2014
Date: January 23, 2015 at 8:32:04 PM MST

I recently purchased Norton 2014, 3 computer version, from It was the download version. After I had removed the existing Norton, that was about to expire from my computer, I downloaded the new It was activated, but in three days it already had expired and Norton was asking for a renewal fee. I tried the software on another computer. Same process, same result. No response to e-mails to

I’ll be declining to pay their credit card bill when it appears.

Checking other purchases that I had made from them in the past I found that both versions of Windows that I bought are not genuine copies.

Microsoft and Norton may want to take a look at these folks.

Caveat emptor



"Of course you are free  to maintain this complaint on your site..."
  Glenn Durrant
Director of eCommerce

Then they took "legal action"... and some not so legal
















 Response to this web page from    worm.gif (3649 bytes)


   Buy Cheap Software Headquarters is at the corner of Walnut and Washington...
   it is, well, a neighborhood.  See more pictures.


  The boring details...

 Here is Buycheapsoftware's published description:

"ProShot 220n, USB-Notebook WebCam, clips onto Notebook Computers. Best Buy Super Sharp Picture/Video and Audio. Two-Year limited warranty, 10-DAY satisfaction guaranteed, No Hassle Return. Absolutly NOT Refurbished."

[In this document the Emphasis is mine.  Spelling is theirs]

Satisfaction guaranteed?  HA!    No hassle?  HA!

CheapSoftware and I spent HOURS emailing each other over a simple refund.

This Web Cam is an INSULT.  I returned it but I still have not heard form Buycheapsoftware, despite repeated emails.

I didn't ask for "permission" to return it.  CheapSoftware didn't ask my permission to sell me JUNK.

Delivery speed Amazingly Good!
Order accuracy Very poor
Customer service Very poor
Product quality Junk
Overall satisfaction None

Would YOU buy from this store?

The Buycheapsoftware people think they are still in Russia.  Here is what they appended to their emails:

This email and its contents are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not disclose
or use the information within this email or its attachments. If you have received this email in error,
please delete it immediately. Thank you.

I disagree. They want to prevent anyone from knowing.  Are they ashamed?

This is my email and I can show it to anyone I please.


The Geschäft at, is also known as  Softman Products LLC.
   Softman Products LLC
   13470 Washington Blvd, 3rd Floor
   Marina Del Ray, CA
   Telephone 1-888-999-2611
Where is this? (map map)

  The proof of return...


  Emails received are posted here.

I was very angry because of the poor quality of this item and because the software messed up my computer.  I was angry when, after a long time, I still had not received my refund.  I wrote to Buys Cheap Software, so here is what happened.
Correspondence with the company and others...

From: Me...
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: Order Received



From: "Sales" <>

Subject: RE: Order Received
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:17:36 -0700

We are sorry that you are not satisfied with this product and would be glad
to take this back. If the order was returned without an RMA number it may be
refused by our receiving department. As stated on our website and invoices,
[At invoice time it's too late too late to make an agreement, isn't it?]
all returns must have an RMA number on the outside of the shipping box. You
may fill out an RMA Request online at:

Thank You

Customer Service

Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:55:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "AUG" View Contact Details
Subject: RE: Order Received
To: "Sales" <>

If you refuse it I will give a very bad and scathing gig in all the customer
reviews on the net. The ball is in your court. you have a lot of gall to
speak to me like this after the insult you sent me.
Best regards,

From: "Sales" <>

Subject: RE: Order Received
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:57:57 -0700

As mentioned in the previous email, our policy on our website and invoices
states that all returns MUST have an RMA number. We cannot guarantee that
the package will be accepted, although we will try, if there is no number on
the box as our receiving dept has strict instructions not to accept any
returns without this number. [What does this mean?] Also in the previous email we informed you that
we would be glad to take back the item when it is returned in the correct

We strongly recommend that you read a company's return policy prior to
sending anything back.

Customer Service

Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 11:59:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: View Contact Details
Subject: RE: Order Received
To: "Sales" <>

Please.. where is my REFUND? I returned this item 2 weeks ago. In 2 hours I
must have an explanation, as I am making your web page now; I will post it if I
don't her from you by then. Then, as I told you before, I will give a very bad
and scathing gig in all the customer reviews on the net.

Thank you kindly in advance for your reply,

From: "Sales" <>

Subject: RE: Order Received
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:50:45 -0700

We do not have any record of your return being received. If you have a
tracking number or any proof that it was delivered, please provide this for

As you were informed in the previous emails, it is very possible that the
delivery was refused if there was no RMA number on the box. We will take the
camera back for a full refund, however, there is a particular procedure for
doing so.

Thank You

Customer Service

"Of course you are free to maintain
this complaint on your site..."

 Glen Durrant
11 Oct 2004
 Director of eCommerce,
 Contractor, Softman Products

From: "Glen Durrant" <>
Subject: Your site
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:15:02 -0700
Hey There,

My name is Glen Durrant. I am responbsible fro ecommerce at An individual who bought one of our webcams posted comments on your site, yet you do not allow us any way to refute or comment on these false claims.

I do allow this.

In fact, you inserted your comment into my web page by providing your special text image, tailored for this web page! I saved it here:


The individual who purchased this camera returned it to us but did not get an RMA number, so we were unable to determine he had returned it. He then contacted us with a two hour ultimatum, this weekend, when we have no staff on call, stating that unless a refund was granted to him immediately he would post this complaint. Of course you are free to maintain this complaint on your site, however it is neither a fair representation of our products, which are simply unbranded generic models of logitec's camera's, [not so, in my opinion] or of our service. We are a business and obvciously cannot refund and restock on the basis of a customers refusal to follow our posted policy and guarantees. We are waiting to hear from him with proof of purchase so that we can resolve this issue.

Best Regards,

Glen Durrant
Director of eCommerce
13470 Washington Blvd.
Marina Del Rey, CA 90292

Cell : (310) 795 9757
Phone : (310) 305-3644 x118
Fax : (310) 305-3645
Email :

This email and [sic] its contents are confidential. If you
are not the intended recipient, please do not disclose
or use the information within this email or its
attachments. If you have received this email in error,
please delete it immediately. Thank you.

The owners' wife gets into the act! ...


Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: View Contact Details
Subject: Re: Your site
To: "Glen Durrant" <>

Dear Glen,
I will make sure that the web site is corrected, as per your instructions, if
you will supply these via return email ASAP. Please state how and why you
determine that you have received a package, if you have it in hand, and please
state why you cannot use its return address to see which of your customers has
sent you it.

Please state when the refund will be forthcoming, now that you know all the
facts and have received the item back.

Please send the refund ASAP. Apparently your customer feels to be in the

PS" Thank you for you permission to maintain this complaint on this site, we
never know if it will be granted. Thanks again and I hope to hear from you
soon with the explanation.

Once again, I will make sure that the web site is corrected, as per your
instructions, if you will supply these asap.

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:53:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: View Contact Details
Subject: RE: Order Received
To: "Sales" <>

Please check your records again. As for the procedure to be followed, I
understand it and do not need instructions, as the procedure for returning
things is centuries old. I followed that procedure, you have the item and my
in your possession. Don't cheat me. You tried to cheat me, but you can
rectify this dishonesty now by paying the money back.

The tracking number you desire is posted on the web page whose URL I emailed
you. Go to the URL again and look at the bottom of the page. Quit trying to chew
me out of my money.

Best Regards,

From: "Sales" <>

Subject: RE: Order Received
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:40:51 -0700

There is no tracking number at the bottom of the page you sent. There is
also no record of you ever applying for an RMA number. We have not received
any return from you and no credit will be given until the camera is

Please provide the tracking number for the return or proof of delivery to
our location.

Thank You

Customer Service

From: "Glen Durrant" <>
CC: "Jonathan Dracup" <>,
"Brent Robinson" <>,
Subject: Re: Your site
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:42:52 -0700

We are a California business that fulfil 500 orders a day globally. When
customers purchase from us they recieve, an emailed receipt, a printed
reciept in duplicate and a packing slip with their shipment, and an email
from fedex with their shipment tracking information. We clearly post on our
site that RMA's must be requested [don't boss me] so that products can be
returned so we know hwen we get a return that it relates to a particular
customer [Bull.  You have my name and address in and on the box!] and a
particular order so we can restock, return and refund. We want to resolve
this so that we can stop wasting time, but policies are there to protect
customers and businesses [slogan]. This may be an issue of a few dollars, but
we will not grant refund requests to anyone without sufficient proof of
purchase and return. This customer has refused to provide us with a tracking
number for his return, so we are unable to establish, if he has returned it,
furthermore this customer, rather than choosing to work with us on this
issue has written an number of not only offensive, but racist emails to us
using terms like 'stop trying to jew me out of money'. My staff are [- 1 pt. for grammar]
very commited customer oriented and pleasant people, many of whom are israli
immigrants, my wife works for the LA DA [sic] as a prosecutor and is also Jewish.
This kind of inconsiderate and unreasonable abuse is to be frank,
disgusting. However I digress.

We have requested that the customer provide us with the tracking number for
the return he claims to have made and when we recieve it we will gladly
refund his money and subsequently will be placing a stop order on his
account. If we continue to recieve any more of this abuse, we will simply
pass it to our legal team. His choice of strong arm tactics, in defaming our
company publicly, given, that our policies are so clearly defined and his
refusal to provide us with this information that would resolve this issue
seem to be indicatibve of a fractious and unreasonable individual. In
addition I certainly have not granted you permission to publish this
complaint, I merely recognise that you provide a service to those who wish
to. I am sure that just as our site has policies, so must yours. When this
individual sees fit to recognise that commercial organizations have codes of
practice and conduct that are there to assist everyone, he might abide by
our reasonable requests to provide proof of his return so that we can refund
him his money. I will expect at such time this complaint be removed, if he
chooses not to provide us this information within the next 10 days then I
can only assume, that he is in fact trying to decieve us and I will pass
this issue over to our legal department who will be in contact with you

Best Regards,

Glen Durrant
Director of eCommerce

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: View Contact Details
Subject: Re: Your site -- la da prosecutor?
To: "Glen Durrant" <>

Now I'm completely verschimmelt. What is a la da prosecutor?

Highest regards,

Ps: Please remember today is your deadline for crediting my account.
Thank you kindly in advance.

 I emailed to it's a fake address. Nice try!  Look:

Date: 21 Oct 2004 00:03:45 -0000
Subject: failure delivery

Message from
Unable to deliver message to the following address(es).

Sorry, I couldn't find any host named (#5.1.2)

No Link:

...and they will SPAM you

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:48:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: View Contact Details
Subject: RE: Order Received
To: "Sales" <>

what is an RMA number, anyway? Do I have one? Why are you stonewalling?
Next, I am going to post my difficulty with you in the Yahoo and C|net customer
reviews, if you do not credit my credit card today. You have the camera, I
know it, because the post office says you have accepted it. You have until the end
of today to rectify this. Don't try to cheat, it will backfire, my friend.

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:14:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: View Contact Details
Subject: Re: Your site
To: "Glen Durrant" <>

You can post clearly on our site anything you want. I never went to your site.
Next, I am going to post my difficulty with you in the Yahoo! and C|net
customer reviews, if you do not credit my credit card today. You are doing a
lot of damage to yourself in trying to chat me out of my 49 bucks, or whatever
the abortion of a thing you tried to sell me. Yes you do digress; it's
insulting to get an English lesson from someone like you, who would try to
swindle an honest customer by by not refunding the money for the returned
merchandise. I'm not interested in your family, its background and problems.
I don't care or what alien stati you and your family hold. Sufficient proof
of purchase is that you took my money, Mr. smarty pants! English is my
second language also, I can see you are immigrants, just leaning the language.
Most native English speakers would recognize that the word staff is singular,
thus "My staff are very..." is not grammatical. Peace, bro. You know who I
am, my return address on the package and letter bearing same was clearly accepted
by you -- the post office inquiry reveals that you have received and accepted it.
Perhaps this is all just a mistake, a book keeping error on your part or on the
part of a noble immigrant staff. If so, please log again -- you have until tonight;
then I will start posting.

Don't dig in your heels. Pay me for the camera I sent back; YOU have all the
papers, complete with your own tracking number on them -- if there was one. Open
the box and READ IT!!! What kind of sloppy business are you running, anyway?

More regards,

From: "Glen Durrant" <>

Subject: Re: Your site
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:29:50 -0700

We are not refusing you a refund, [finally.  I'm all ears now, thanks] we are asking you to proove that you
returned the item so we can give you one.

We refuse all packages that do not come with an RMA as a matter of policy.
You never applied for an RMA so we have no record of the problem, or any
proof of return. Provide us with your return shipment number from UPS,
Fedex or whoever you used when you sent your camera back and we will credit
  The proof of return...

Try it: call the 800-number if you don't believe me

your account. [Thank you!] You claim we have your package, then you should be able to
prove that we have and we just need the shipment number you claim we have. I
don't understand what the problem is, send us it and we will immediately
credit you.

I want to refund you so we can resolve this. I need the shipping number [See above]
that you got when you returned the item that's all to immediately credit
your account. Now send us what we need so you can get what you want. If you
choose not to fulfil the criteria on our site and help us help you then we
are at an impasse - I have no proof of your return, you refuse to provide us
with any, and this is why we have not yet refunded you.

Now let me explain your position before you do anything foolish. You are
unjustifiably threatening our company and threatening the livelihood of 16
people, you use racist insinuations, you publicly write unfair and
unjustified statements about our company [It's FAIR and BALANCED. No omissions, no additions].
You then actively attempted to decieve me into believing that the complaint
site that you published on was your site, all of which is illegal. [really? Show me]
We have written proof of all of your actions, signed by you sent from the IP
address of the machine in your home and records of every interaction with us.
[Good. Then you should have no trouble finding the package which I returned,
what kind of business are you running, anyway?].

You are currently in a very tenuous legal position and I would advise you not
to proceed with your current course of action. If you do choose to proceed in
this manner then I will be forwarding all relevant materials to our lawyers.

...and they will SPAM you  

Where is Marina Del Ray? (map)

I hope you understand our position in relation to yours and will send us the
tracking number. Then you will get your refund. If you cannot do so then
tell us. [I think they should know by now] We do not have your package here
and need to know where it is, the tracking number tells us. If , as you claim,
you returned the camera we sold you then you should be able to provide us
with proof that you did so we can refund the money you paid for it.

Best Regards,

Glen Durrant
Director of eCommerce

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:41:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: "AUG" 
Subject: Re: Your site
To: "Glen Durrant" <>

Dear Director of eCommerce --

I apologize for leading you to believe that I had posted the Postal service's
DELIVERY CONFIRMATION RECEIPT on this web page; that was wrong. I will speak
to the webmaster about this. It is posted now. You can use its information to
verify what you want to know.

My deepest condolences to your wife and family whom I do not wish to insult.
In fact, I did now know you are married. My apologies to all of your alien
workers also, be they Israelis or Mohammedan or atheists.
[Rena Durrant is an atheist, I found out later; this, according to one of her web pages.  That'g good' it looks like she can think for herself --Ed.].

Thank you for your offer to refund my money, seemingly, now without the XYZ
number. Please reimburse me for the shipping and insurance costs also, they
amount to about six or seven dollars, if I remember correctly AND DON'T EXPECT
ME TO PROVE THAT TO YOU ALSO, or I may just have to do that.

If there are any inaccuracies on my web page, I will correct them, of course.

Update:  This company did eventually refund part of the money I spent by crediting my credit card's account.
But it was not a full refund of my costs.
As for the remainder of the amount, I disputed it with he credit card company and that refund was given too.

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:15:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jim" <>
Subject: information

I agree with you on this company. I emailed them
twice about a question and they never even replied.

Good for the warning.


Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:19:38 +0200
From: "Zenon Panoussis" <oracle[at]>
To: "Glen Durrant" <>, "Brent Robinson" <>,
"Jonathan Dracup" <>

Subject: Legal threats and bullying

I happened to hear about the webcam dispute previously published on
[the'Net] and your subsequent dispute with the publisher of those pages on
the legality of his publication.

I regard the webcam dispute as rather uninteresting and insignificant.
A clumsy and stubborn customer did not request an RMA, whereafter a
disorganised and stubborn company refused to issue a refund. Things
like that happen all the time. The story reflects bad on you as well
as on your customer. So far, I couldn't care less.

The manner in which you met your customer's criticism, however, is
a completely different issue.

He published his correspondence with you, along with his opinion of
you. His opinion might be biased and subjective, but that's what
opinions are, and everyone has the right to express his opinions no
matter how biased they might be. Your customer did provide the public
with his full correspondence with you, thereby giving your side of
the story equal or greater publicity than his own side of it. He thus
provided the reader with the full objective facts, based on which the
reader can form his own unbiased opinion. This, in my view, is fair,
correct, and perfectly legal.

In response to your customer's criticism, you threatened to sue him
and you attempted to discredit him to his employer. Your threats were
successful in that your customer succumbed and removed the pages in
question from his website. In other words, you managed to stifle
criticism by bullying your critic into silence.

In my opinion, such tactics deserve an appropriate response. This
response comes now from me. I have published the pages in question

where they will remain until I have forgotten about this whole issue,
or for time and eternity and until kingdom come, or until you obtain
a court ruling ordering their removal, whichever comes first.

For your information, the website is maintained
by a Swedish legal entity and is hosted in Germany. This gives you
a rather wide choice of forum: you can sue in Sweden, in Germany or
in the USA, at your own choice. Please be aware though that Swedish
rulings are enforceable in Germany and vice versa, while US rulings
are unenforceable in Europe.

Finally, before you reply, please be aware that I reserve the right
to publish all and any communications from you, including e-mails,
letters and court filings, at my own discretion. You are welcome to
try to threaten and bully me too, but you should be adviced that your
chances to succeed are minuscule to non-existent.

Monsieurs, faites vos jeux. 
[place your bets]


From: "Bob Zelenak" <>

Subject: buycheap software complaint
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 09:45:38 -0500
This is simply a case of a buyer not following rules. I know many more customers who've had good experiences on this 'software' site. (Why would one even buy a hardware product off this site?) Bottom line, polish up on your English skills, pay better attention to directions. Follow the rules for returning packages and you'll have more time for some English lessons!


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