~~|~~ @Com ~~ Was Moses Real? ~~

JAN 2007

Page updated 2008-07-11

Reverend Dr. VanBuskirk

Scams -- Dishonesty -- Abuse -- Salt Lake Baptist College.

	Were captive Jews in Egypt ? Were there ANY Jews in Egypt ?

Here is how it began...

I first met the "Doc" at a winter solstice party. The conversation turned to the historicity of Jews in Egypt. I said that the Bible story has no basis in history -- that there were never any Jews in captivity in Egypt. The reverend Doctor disagreed and said he would prove me wrong. As he did not know his facts offhand but he would look up his beliefs and send me the evidence.

Ten days later I received a reply...
The Reverend's emails are in BLACK; mine, [Ed], are shown in BLUE
(Emphasis, cartoons, links and decorations added by me)

Salt Lake Baptist College

Introducing... Christ's Servant in Utah and Administrative Vice President Author, educator and VP at Salt Lake Baptist College.

"I have Bachelor degree from Texas Baptist Bible College and a Master's and two Doctorates from Salt Lake Baptist College. I am currently the Administrative Vice President as well as a professor in the college."

Dr. T.E. VanBuskirk
Salt Lake Baptist College
SLC UT 84118
801 / 964-0763
docvbk@saltlakebaptistcollege.org saltlakebaptistcollege.org ALUMNI

Here is some of the info I promised to send to you. There is a massive amount more available on the internet from secular as well as religious sources. But, here are just a few that I have had the time to dig out for you.

[Ed: If you want to read about this "massive amount", click here, but be advised it's all JUNK.]

The Reverend Dr. VanBuskirk says "there are multiplied [sic] hundreds of more sites on these subjects" meaning many more web sites exist on this subject -- the historicity of Jews in Egypt. Yet he only gave these few links... None address the question. In an email I told him so, after having looked at all these links. I thought he was being dishonest in using these links to fortify his claim that Jews existed in Egypt and I told him so.

My email to him: Thank you, but don't make this so too difficult and obtuse. You sent me links to follow, yet they yield nothing pertaining to our quest -- evidence of JEWS in Egypt. If you could gather all the good stuff, the real stuff, not just Wholly Babble (Holt Bible:) thumper's articles about these things, but the real things, that could be appreciated and it will be more honest -- and would not waste my time. And PLEASE realize that sending Bible quotes doesn't count as evidence! I'm going to ignore those because we want evidence from outside of religion -- from history, from archeology, yes?

I once made a claim claim [to a Mormon] that there is no evidence of iron or steel in Pre-Columbian America [as the Book of Mormon claims], and a friend offered to give me evidence of it. He showed me a book about pre-Columbian copper fish hooks. [That was dishonest. The reverend is doing the same here, it seems.]

I hope your evidence won't weasel out like that, I'd hate to think that you'd try dishonesty, what with being a man of the cloth and all. I haven't read all of your material yet, and I'll wait for the winnowed down material. I don't need a lot to believe your point, I need only one good piece of evidence for me to change my mind.

So please don't do to me more like your links here, it's nothing. Give me the meat only, OK?

Thanks in advance.
Ps: I have a link that's much more in the ballpark of this subject: moses-news.htm.

Dear reverend Doc Van,
I'm UNDERWHELMED, reverend.
I've looked at your material and I'm materially unimpressed. The lack of your honesty and that of most of the material your emailed to me is abundant. Yes, we have an abundant lack here :) We have an abundant lack of integrity.
Mr. reverend ! It's not honest to give such drivel as what you sent me, as evidence for historicity of Jewish captivity in Egypt. There is nothing about that in any of your references. Yes, Moses is mentioned, but nothing about that he's "our" Moses. And to boot, only your bible-thumping websites mention him, if we are to believe that one of the Tutmosis' or Tutmose's, is Moses. *IF* you can do better, you should; as I am waiting for some real evidence. As it stands you are somewhat dishonest with me, I think, and also with yourself, to give this tripe as evidence for the historicity of Jews. There's more validity in a vile of Snake Oil, than in what you sent to me, Mr. Elmer Gantry.

Happy new year, doc !! [2007]

The same to you. And God bless you :>)

Doc

god
is Not
Great

How Religion
Poisons
Everything

by Christopher Hitchens

At 06:22 PM 1/1/2007, you wrote:

No dishonesty meant nor exhibited.
I told you I would research it for you and I did.

--- I received NOTHING about Israelites in Egypt from you! That was the deal. That is what you said you'd send. You found nothing, and I looked at every link you sent me. Did you even read my email with annotations of your links?? Was I wrong? If you have something on the historicity of Jews in Egypt, or a single museum with even one MENORAH, Hebrew text from pharaonic Egypt, please let me see it soon. It's not right to claim that you gave me anything like that. The fact remains that you didn't do it.

That was the material that I was able to find;

--- I saw nothing of historicity of Jews in Egypt; you ability to find is very poor, near zero, just as I though when I told you that in person. You said you would look up your beliefs and send me that evidence. You sent meaningless material -- if not, please correct me where I'm wrong. Just merely saying "Moses" doesn't count, does it, when we are looking for a population of Jews in Egypt. There is no trace of that, that's my claim and you thing the opposite. Show me.

some of it archaeological and some of it historical, much of it from various secular sources. Whether you receive it or not is up to you.

--- I received everything you sent and looked at everything. If I missed something, please show me which of the items are important -- (most don't even mention Moses the thing you seem to hang your hat on, and none say anything about Jews / Israelites in Egypt), yes or no?

To NOT do what I said I would do would have been dishonest!

--- Yes, so do it then please. I think you will find nothing, but you told me you have something to produce to validate your belief in Jews in captivity (or in any state) in Egypt. Where is this extra-biblical evidence. Do you have it?

The GOD Delusion

by Richard Dawkins

Find a specific title

Amazon.com

Bonus Link

But to spend several hours to do exactly what I said I WOULD do cannot be called dishonest by anyone that understands the meaning of the word.
[Hmmm... he said he was going to PROVE the existence of Israelites in Egypt. I don't understand the proof. What / where is it? Perhaps I should have my head examined.]
My relationship with God plus common decency dictates that I keep my word- and I have done so.
[Smug.]
Sorry if that is unacceptable to you that I did so.

--- I'll try this then: I will pray that you will send this evidence tomorrow. If praying works, you will find it in time to shar it with me. If praying doesn't work, then we'll know just that -- that praying doesn't work.

If I can be of further service, please let me know.
--- Yes, thanks. But please remember just cobbling together a bunch of off-topic web pages with links on them that you didn't read many of them does not count. I need the MEAT. Where are the cemeteries, the artifacts the Jewish oil lamps and bones, and the records of the Egyptians. I have seen almost literally tons of Egyptian writing, letters form Egyptian writers, covering a multitude of subjects from records of warfare, letters home, letters to the employers of PAID pyramid builders, to just plain bragging of rulers. It would be dishonest to say for sure that Jews were there, without having any evidence for that. You might as well believe that Martian slaves helped make the pyramids, as the evidence for that is equal to the evidence of the existence of Jews in Egypt. Correct me if I'm wrong.

RE: "No dishonesty meant nor exhibited."
--- I know you don't mean to be dishonest, but if you have no real archeological evidence of Jews in Egypt, no artifacts, no Hebrew or Egyptian writing, and you still think Jewish slaves built the pyramids, etc... then what should anyone think of your intellectual al honesty and that of the clergy?

It serves no purpose for you merely to say yes you did send evidence and me to say no you didn't send it. That would be stupid. Many of the links were irrelevant (some are defunct). I tried, honestly. Please make it a bit easier and just send me the good stuff, the thing you want me to really pay attention to. Thanks kindly in advance, Doc. I will start to pray now as soon as I click the send button here, for this material evidence; let's see if praying works. After all, you think that god is on Your side.

BTW, reverend, you are a doctor of divinity, yes? Where did you go to school to earn this degree, I'm curious. Happy New year and please say Happy new year to your lovely wife, I'm sorry I already forgot her name. I'm stupid :(

At 11:05 AM 1/3/2007, you wrote:
What makes you think God would answer the prayers of an unbeliever? [sic]
--- well I now have some evidence that god answers prayers, your reply arrived in time, but I also prayed that your reply would contain the answer. It does not. Instead you refer me to "at least one of the links". Which one, for christ's sake ?

By the way, the Hebrews didn't build the pyramids. They were simply slaves in Egypt, and that at a point in time of several thousand years after the pyramids were built.
The pyramids were built by Egyptian workers.
--- Yes. Many apologists don't know that.

At least one of the links I sent you, that I did have the time to check out, mentioned Canaanites, which would have included the Hebrews, in Egypt.
And they also referred to the term Ipuru, Hebrew, which was given to the Israelites by the Egyptians.

Sorry if the info did not meet with your approval. But, what else could I have expected. I get the feeling that nothing would except a time-traveling Egyptian
--- I'm very skeptical of time travel...

who would tell you face-to-face that he had Hebrews working under him in Egypt back then. :>)
May God bless you- should He choose to do so
Doc

--- If I pray for His blessing and I receive none, then praying does not work, since he would have chosen to to bless me.
--- If I pray for your answer and I receive none, so here would be proof that praying does not work.
--- Please don't persist lazily and disingenuously. The Wholly Babble is wrong on this point of the historicity of Jews in Egypt... For the third time now, which ONE of your links (outside of biblical references) validates the notion that Jews were in Egypt, captive or not ??? I looked at everything you sent me and there was nothing; please correct me if I'm wrong.
--- If this business is so clear why do you weasel so? Why not just tell me the damn evidence ??
--- You told me that you would look up your beliefs and let me know, but you didn't yet.
--- BTW, where did you graduate from... I asked before.

At 02:26 AM 1/4/2007, you wrote

I promised to look up what info I could find on the net. And what I sent you is what I have found so far. Some of it secular and some not. Some of the articles that I have read in the past, such as those in a magazine called "Biblical Archaeology",
--- I don't think you limited your promise to do just a quick net search, Doc. You said you had the answer for sure and you would send it to me via email. You may have *thought* net search, Google, slam-dunk, etc,.but...

--- "Biblical Archaeology" is good on the Bible things but it's crap on Archaeology. For example, in the mid seventies, I read an explanation in that rag abut the Shroud of Turin, where it hypothesized that during resurrections, a new sub-atomic particle may be created -- and I'm not making this up -- the resurrectron -- and that that's what probably "burned in" a 3-D image of the Resurrecrtee's burial shroud. Later I found a book in which it was admitted --in the first paragraph of the book -- that the shroud of Turin had bee dated to only the mid-14th century. And the marks on it are only paint, for Christ's sake! So, be skeptical. Tread lightly when you read "Biblical Archaeology" as these people have an axe to grind. Like you.

which is a professional group that follows archaeological issues pertaining to biblical places, civilizations, and people, etc., as well as others by reputable groups are just simply not, as far as I have been able to ascertain so far, available on the net. I am not "weaseling" I just cannot source them through the net. I said I would try and I have.

-- You did not say only "try", bub -- you said that you would really DELIVER!

"Even I am not satisfied
with the results so far"
Dr. VanBuskirk

--- Have looked in your your "library"? It's quite extensive judging from your pictures of it on the Net. I can tell you that you may safely ignore searching the Louvre in Paris and the Hermitage in Skt. Petersburg and the British Museum in London. These have probably the most extensive records of the period, especially for your search for the historicity of Moses / exodus. You'd be wasting your time, there is nothing there, I know for sure. I've not visited Cairo museum; no doubt if anything of this exists, it should be there. Also, foundations of synagogues and of Jewish dwellings, streets, wells, hovels, should be physically present near Cairo, now. In the desert sand we should see literally tons of pottery shards. Perhaps you might try that tack. For your convenience, here it the link for the Egyptian Museum in Cairo: http://www.egyptianmuseum.gov.eg/ Once there, you might try to type "Moses" into the search.

Here is one you might want to look at first: http://www.truthbeknown.com/exodus.htm .

--- On the other hand, if praying works why don't you just to that? Pray to know where the evidence lies? It's really exceedingly simple, if prying works. As I have learned form you praying does not always work... for example I have it on authority that it just won't work for people like me. To bad, I'd be much more impressed if this praying business were more egalitarian, after all that's the American way, yes?

I will try to obtain them some other way. Perhaps through direct contact with the magazine. Please don't perceive this as "weaseling"
--- OK

because that is not my intent. I promised to try to source them for you over the internet but have not been able to do so, so far. Some of those I have found for you already are quite sound. Especially the ones on the historicity of Jesus. They were from Roman, not religious, sources. (Pliny the younger, etc.)

Testimony...

of historians and writers who
lived during Christ's lifetime
or within 100 years later

Famous Ancient Greeks & Romans who Wrote About Jesus

Apollonius
Appian
Arrian
Aulus Gellius
Colotes
Columella
Damis
Dio Chrysostom
Dion Pruseus
Epictetus
Favorinus

Florus Lucius
Fundanus
Hermogones
Josephus
Justus of Tiberius
Juvenal
Lucanus
Lucian
Lysias
Martial
Paterculus

Persius
Petronius
Phaedrus
Philo-Judaeus
Phlegon
Pliny the Elder
Pliny the Younger
Plutarch
Pompon Mela
Ptolemy
Quintilian

Quintius Curtius
Seneca the Elder
Seneca the Younger
Silius Italicus
Soscius Senecio
Statius
Suetonius
Tacitus
Theon of Smyran
Valerius Flaccus
Valerius Maximus

"Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus"...

Read more about it: holysmoke.org/sdhok/jesus5.htm by By Richard Smith

The Jesus Mysteries:
Was the Original Jesus a Pagan God?
by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy

LINK: The 101⁺ Book Atheism Library !

--- Well...Ahem... Pliny the Younger -- Wikipedia died more than 100 years after the alleged birth of our Saviour... so he might not be a convincing witness / source.

Perhaps Julius Caesar or one of our Lord's other contemporaries, scholars, Rabbis, jotted something down of this important god, what with the crucifixion and all that King of the Jews business, and all. Perhaps He Himself, Jesus, the great teacher, philosopher and orator found time to scratch a few of his most important thoughts for posterity, while sitting around he campfire, mending fishing nets, chatting with His apostles. This just so that there would be no misunderstanding and no VERSIONS of the Wholly Babble later. What a super idea this would have been! Something solid would have been really really convincing. Lots of other documents from that time exist! Don't blow me off.

I have already invested quite some hours in research on the net, and even I am not satisfied with the results so far,
--- THANK YOU! That's honest.

--- Please don't come jammering now, my friend. At the Winter Solstice Party you seemed quite glib and dismissive, (sometimes I'm mistaken) like oh, it's noting to give you this information. Then you tried to trick me into falsely thinking that all of your previous hyperlinks you emailed to me pertain to our subject here! I wasted a lot of time following them. Next you said that, oh well, at least one of those was good hyperlink. Now it seems that perhaps you have read that link yourself by now, and not before -- and it turned out, unapologetically, like crap! That's what I think; correct me of I'm wrong.

but I will invest a bit more. Duties here are currently extremely pressing (80-100 hour work weeks for the last couple of weeks- today has already been 15 hours) and the next two days I will be entirely involved in redesigning and rebuilding the entire sound system and sound station in the church building, so I can do nothing more concerning this current question until next week. I will try to source more information for you then.

Please be patient. I will do the best I can as I promised.
Doc
--- Ok. Suggestion: Pray for a fixed sound system. If praying works you should have one, like, yesterday.

At 02:57 AM 1/4/2007, you wrote:
I have Bachelor degree from Texas Baptist Bible College and a Master's and two Doctorates from Salt Lake Baptist College.
I am currently the Administrative Vice President as well as a professor in the college.

On a side note -- your remarks about prayer. God promises to answer the prayer of the believer. With the non-believer He has never promised to answer their prayers. But, even though He has not obligated himself to do so, He does sometimes answer their prayers,

--- So god sometimes answers the prayer of believers and god sometimes answer the prayers of nonbelievers.
--- god sometime does not answer the prayer of believers and also sometimes does not answer the prayers of nonbelievers. There's absolutely no distinction here! This seems stupid, reverend. god treats both groups the same, for christ's sake!

Yet you tell me that if I pray for a SPEEDY resolution to your giving me [an un-believer] the Jew-answers, He will ignore me. You are either sanctimonious, joking or you know a lot, but not much about the historicity of Jew in Egypt -- at least not now [because as you tell me, you need to look up the foundation of your beliefs]. So, Dr., why don't you just pray for this answer and be dome with it? Praying only should take a second, especially since Mr. Omniscient up there already knows what's on your mind before you open your mid or your heart, whatever you do; he's just waiting for you to grovel and worship, to prove to someone that he is indeed the Ruler of the Universe.

--- If sometimes my car works and sometime my car does not work, I'd say that my car isn't working. But what do I know, I'm stupid. If most of the time my car does not work, but only once in a blue moon, I'd say it's broken. What with all the people who pray and have prayed for a pleasant world in which to live, and look what we got -- I'd say for sure that praying does not work. But you have a different opinion, reverend. [why???]

I'm interested in the Historicity of the Jews in Egypt. Even a blind man can see that praying is as useless as tits on a boar. If praying works, I hold you , Dr. E.T. VanBuskirk PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for all the bad shit going down now and in the past and in the future. And I chose my words carefully here, Reverend.

However, it is whenever He wants and according to His own will and plans. The one prayer He has promised to always listen to, and answer, from the unbeliever is the one for Salvation.

--- OK, lets try it, then. Please pray for my salvation. I will do nothing and thus fight God. Let's see if he's more powerful than I. Please click that you have received this message, indicating that my salvation is imminent. The I'll tell you if I have a salved feeling on my end, because the promised YES answer has been obtained. If not, then we'll have shown that even praying for salvation does not work. On the other hand, the Omnipotent may not be able to change my salvation status because I don't need it. I'm an atheist. I have never sinned and can never sin. That's one of the cool things about not believing in god/s. Damn, I'm off the subject again!

Other than in the prayer for Salvation, which He has promised to always answer with a "Yes," He answers prayer in three ways- yes, no, or not yet [- thus later for sure -- ed. But what of one's prayer was for now?].
In this He is answerable to no one [in other things, however he is answerable to someone --ed]. He will always do and answer in the way that is best and for the good of the one praying to Him.

Anyway, I will, as I said in the other e-mail I just sent you a few minutes ago, continue to do some research for you on the questions at hand.

I will also, if you would like, have my wife's e-mail you the link to a site called "Ask Noah" which is handled by a Jewish man

--- No, that's OK. Thanks anyway. I'll look at http://www.asknoah.org/ later -- I just took a peek now and I don't have a good feeling about it.

that has been quite helpful to me on a major project I am currently working on- a video and series of ten lectures on the Ten Commandments. I begin delivering them this coming Sunday

--- While you're there, you might bring it into context with the the parts of Exodus that condones slavery, manservants, how to treat them and that it's ok to have them. I've always wanted one.

evening and will also be delivering them on the road this summer with the tour of Tent Meetings from Texas to Washington state. I'm sure the man on the Ask Noah site has better access to info on Moses [sic] than I do at this time,

--- weasel! Postponement will not look good on your record, my friend :)

after all Moses was their go-between when they received The Law,

--- Jews are much more entrenched in this belief in Moses than everyone else - they have a bigger axe to grind. Moses is much more important to them than he is to christians. To them he's like "our" jesus is to Crustians. After all that's all they have, more or less -- the equivalent of "our" Old Testament. Good luck on your lecture on the Ten Suggestions, though.

and might be quite helpful to you in this matter. Should you like to contact him, let me know and I will have my wife e-mail you the link.
She has been handling the contact with him for my research, so she has the e-mail address. I don't. If you want it, I will have her send it to you. Let me know.

--- No thanks.

And I will look up the link you were asking about that I sent you before and let you know which one it was. The one on Moses and/or the Jews in Egypt. The one on Jesus is quite easy to find. [I don't even dare now, to get involved with him on the historicity of Jesus - ed.] It was the one referring to the writings of Pliny the younger (a Roman) and Josephus, who was an employee of Rome commissioned to write an official history of the Jews for the Roman government. It also quoted another Roman, I believe it was Tacitus but I am not 100% sure about the name.
Talk to you later,
Doc

At 03:38 AM 1/4/2007, you wrote:
This is the one that seemed the most informative about Semitic peoples from Palestine (Canaan) being in Egypt. (By the Way, the Hebrews are a Semitic people from Palestine/Canaan. In fact the very term Semitic comes from the biblical character, Shem.) http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/exodus.html:

"There is no archaeological evidence to confirm the account of God delivering the Israelates from Egypt..."

--- In this link, I found lots of material about the historicity of Attila the Hun, quickly and easily. Just one good (easy) source is Wikipedia. Attila the Hun existed! Jews in Egypt did not. I'm not going to slug thru that stuff on the net of the page, especially with the disclaimer in the first sentence that there is no evidence of habitation of Israelites in Egypt. If it exists, please cut and paste the material on that page into a reply Thanks in advance. [Eventually I did read that web page]

--- You know, Archeological evidence would really be good. Some photos of the sites, pottery, and documents. Where's the beef ??

The next link concerned Moses and was quite informative. However, even I am not satisfied with the connections and conclusions made and the proofs offered. Seemed a bit nebulous to me. They draw possible conclusions but not definitive ones. I would have to do some quite extensive research and try to contact some experts in Egyptology for confirmation and more evidence before I would accept that one and the conclusions they drew. As I said, possible conclusions but not definitive ones.

I will continue doing a bit more research for you next week. I am completely tied up with my duties here for the rest of this week.
I explained that situation in an earlier e-mail.
Doc

At 03:54 AM 1/5/2007, you wrote:
Look again at what I actually said, not what you think I said- God always answers the prayers of the believers. In one of three ways, as I also said.

Prayer from an unbeliever is answered sometimes - but only according to God's sovereign will. He has not obligated himself to do so as He has with the believer.

God will answer a prayer for salvation from an unbeliever IF that person is making a sincere request from the heart. The glib ramblings of someone who is only doing it to challenge Him in a spirit of unbelief and sarcasm will come back in the spirit with which they were offered- void.

--- Now you say *IF*... before you did not say that, bub. Now you said "God will answer a prayer for salvation from an unbeliever IF that person is making sincere request from the heart."

--- What you ACTUALLY said was this: "God promises to answer the prayer of the believer. With the non-believer He has never promised to answer their prayers. But, even though He has not obligated himself to do so, He does sometimes answer their prayers,..."

--- This means that god sometimes answers the prayer of believers and god sometimes answer the prayers of nonbelievers. [We know well that He does not answer believers' prayers for world peace, for example. So...]
--- god sometimes does not answer the prayer of believers and also sometimes does not answer the prayers of nonbelievers. There's absolutely no distinction here. I'm not stupid, bub, I can read.

--- OK, I won't pray. My salvation is in your hands then, reverend; it's up to you, the ball is in your park. So far, nothing has happened at this end. In fact, it looks like your Wholly Babble stories are just that, babble, judging from your inability to produce any independent archeological evidence of Jews inhabiting Egypt. All experts in this field say it wasn't so, but you think it was so. The ball is in your court to show them wrong.

--- I now see why you were so reluctant to point out to me why the ONE link out of the crap you first send me came so late. In the link's very first paragraph it says that there isn't any evidence of the Jews. You knew that an were reluctant to point that out and give it as your best evidence do far, because you knew it would be dishonest. Furthermore, you never pointed out the MEAT on that "best" link because you knew it wasn't there, yes

He won't answer sarcasm with salvation because the sarcastic one wasn't really asking for it in the first place- but rather only blowing the hot air of a buffoon. Well, we'll leave that matter in God's hands. Galatians 6:7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

My praying for your salvation, which I do and will continue to do, will not be answered by God forcing you to get saved.

--- so, you will continue pray, knowing for sure that it won't work. How goofy of you! Besides, telling god just once ought to suffice, don't you think he heard you the first time, or what? Meanwhile, I will just wait here to be saved -- I shall do nothing to prevent or speed up my salvation. Let's see who is more powerful in this regard, God or me, ha ha.

He has given you free will and you have chosen to exercise it.

--- I, for one have no free will, believing free will is stupid. If I had free will I'd choose to be different from most, as it is I'm the same as everyone else.

My prayers for your salvation will be answered by God; but it will be done by Him continuing to work on your heart through people and circumstances and the Holy Spirit- but,

--- Do your worst! :) cause your god to save me, I dare you. I will do nothing to prevent or encourage it, I will just wait her and not even give it any thought.

He will not force you to get saved.

--- OK, cool.

That has to be your choice.

--- I won't choose... perhaps, if god is to stupid to know that, you should tell him and ask him to override my "free will" to choose not to choose. The ball is in your court, reverend. Pray, pray longer, pray louder... do whatever needs to be done. It's your [TAX-EXEMPT] business, not mine.

God has given us free will and that thing which He has given to you cannot be abrogated by my prayers.

--- I see, in this case, then, at least praying does not work, eh? You are beginning to see my point, reverend :)

By the way, I asked the whole church to pray for you during our Wednesday night prayer meeting [sic] .
So now you have 50 people that love you enough to pray for you. More important, God loves you. He'll keep working on you and I'll keep working on the Moses thing like I promised.

--- Yeah, 50 uneducated people who, like you think that Egyptian thing really happened, when evidence tells us it didn't. I'm impressed! Your single repeated praying isn't good enough, why?? Louder, harder. more, more often? Jesus your omniscient god must be deaf! I never understood why you people think that repeating, and nauseam, a prayer to the omniscient is going to change His own will and plans.

Too bad you didn't want to read the rest of that first page I sent in that first list and then looked it up for you again. There was some fairly good stuff there. We'll see what you do with the next ones.

--- I do want to read it. And I will, mow, but I'll be really pissed if this is another wild goose chase, your previous links have been so dishonest. Correct me if I'm wrong. After your correction, if I get one, I'll take the time to go thru, one by one, to show that each link is crap. It's up to you.

Also, you took the Attila the Hun thing out of context.

--- I don't remember. Your point then was...?

Gotta try to get a bit of sleep now. By the way, prayer works.

--- Really? The 50 people praying for my salvation seem to have had no effect, I feel definitely un-saved. So now we have shown that praying does not work. NOTHING HAS HAPPENED! In fact, I don't even think that I need salvation. I'm OK. I've never sinned. If salvation means, among other things that next, I'll believe the Jews left not a single pottery shard, midden, building foundation in the desert, then I don't particularly want to be saved because salvation would mean stupidity. But I'll leave it up to you and your 50. Read them my email, but leave my name out, OK? (I think the Omniscient will be able to deduce for whom they are praying -- even though He apparently needs to be told everything 50-fold, ad nauseam) I'm willing to entertain and examine any evidence of their habitation in the desert, it's just that you are weaseling in giving it to me by dishonestly trying to obfuscate the thing with sending a ton if irrelevant Internet links to confuse me. In fact, you seem embarrassed now for having done that, by sending me that last link, the one which said that there is no evidence if the Jews' captivity in Egypt, as evidence that there were Jews in Egypt.

I'm not the only one that believes so. [apparently VOTING on the truth has some validity]

--- so you're not the only one who believes in Buddhism, or that the earth is flat or that there are no gods. What a stupid argument, Doctor!

--- that's not so, I've seen many of these studies debunked. Praying does not work, as we can see with your 50-strong prayer team. I'm not saved after the praying... so now we have very strong evidence that praying does not work. I hope you'll send me the evidence of the Historicity of Jewish habitation in Egypt soon.

On proving that Egyptians exists...

Amazon.com

Dear reverend,
I read the "important link" you sent me, which, as you admitted, does not even satisfy you completely
( http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/exodus.html   )
"In Genesis 46:27 we read that ..."
"Thus, we have direct archaeological [sic] evidence of the presence of at least several tens of thousands of Semites with Hebrew culture..."
             So: The Bible is true because it tells us so. Ha ha ha!!

"Although the man Moses has not yet turned up in extra-biblical sources..."

"...the chronology issue isn't necessarily a very damaging problem [sic] for the book of Exodus..."
            Really? Who cares show me the artifacts!
If those are indeed Egyptian chariot wheels, reverend, then the link you gave me as your best evidence certainly contains evidence for the existence of Egyptians in Egypt. GOOD WORK!

ARTICLE's CLOSING PARAGRAPH. "God loves you, my friend, and that's why he provided the Bible to explain the work and ministry of Jesus Christ, who came to provide the way of salvation. We invite you to investigate, by reading the Bible." (And nothing else).
Don't look in a real archeology book, my friend, since we know the Bible is true because it tells us it's true. Jesus christ, reverend you must think people are really STUPID to give them shit like http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/exodus.html to wade through. You have absolutely no respect for me! Pray for respect, eh? If praying works, then for christ's sake pray for the Goddamn answer and please quit pussyfooting around. And speaking of praying, have your 50 x powerful prayers worked yet? I feel no better about religion yet, but I've learned that you can't even trust a man of the cloth not to lie to you.

THE ARTIFACTS:

Dear Doc,
Here’s my prediction: You won’t supply proof – not even physical evidence – of the thing you said you could deliver, the historicity of Jews in Egypt.

Already you’re saying that it’s taking too much time to supply this evidence which is one of the cornerstones of your religion. It’s a shame that you have believed this all your life without checking into its validity. You claim you’re too busy to supply this evidence. I think you don’t have any. If you had any evidence you would know what it is, instead of having to LOOK UP YOUR BELIEFS. Is it that nobody in your extensive two -- count them – TWO -- upper-class PhD classes covered this topic? Did you swallow the Wholly Babble Bible story unquestioningly, hook, line and sinker?

If it should turn out that there is no archeological evidence of Jewish habitation and servitude in paranoiac Egypt, would you be intellectually strong enough to accept it ? I think not, if you follow the stereotype of True Believers -- that’s my prediction of what will happen.

Why don’t you wonder if your Baptist primates who issued your “PhD” lied to you or were themselves fooled as you. Honestly, I’m really sorry if you must come to realize that what your parents and those you love told you turns out to be false. My parents lied to me about Saint Nicklaus and the Easter Bunny but I got over it. Your predicament is the same, I think.

My prediction : You will draw this out, sending me more useless sophistries and bible quotes of how the bible is really, really, true; after all it’s the word of god and the bible is true because it tells us so.

My prediction : You will claim again that since “everyone else” believes it, they must be true, those fictitious Egyptian Jew-scenarios.
My prediction : You will use as excuse the tone of my correspondence, not is meaning, substance, to claim moral superiority or insult, and thus weasel that you won’t supply the evidence which you promised – you may say that it would be like throwing pearls before the swine.

My prediction : You will draw out and nauseam the delivery of the evidence you thought you could provide to me. You will inflict the death of a thousand cuts by making me research goofy useless links, such as in your first email to me.

My prediction : you will claim that Faith is the answer, even though there is none of that there pesky evidence which you promised. Faith, after all is this --

1. The belief that something is true, in spite of evidence to the contrary.
2. The proposition that something is true, even if there is no evidence to support it.
3. The idea that something can be made true, merely by wishing it to be so.
4. You will use one or all the above in combination.

Best regards,

Ps: as you can see, your 50-person prayer team has not yet had an effect. Perhaps you should ask them (I don’t want to tell you how to do your job :) to pray LOUDER, HARDER, LONGER, MORE, MORE SINCERELY, SYCOPHANTICALLY and GENUFLECTINGLY, whatever… let’s see if your praying will work!

Only a fool would have a false religion.

"Faith is something you believe that nobody
in his right mind would believe."
-- Archie Bunker

I'm just about finished with rebuilding the sound station. I spent the better part of two days on it already. I'll finish up tomorrow. Then I'll be able to allot some more time to "the Jew thing."

I'm running a search right now on my e-mail to see if I can find the article that I was originally searching for that I told you about the night of our conversation. I'll let you know if I find it. I lost several thousand e-mails when we changed servers last year. I hope it is still there somewhere.

Doc

Dr. Heinerman wrote about Mormon space aliens.
He also has written extensively about health and fruit juices. Dr. Heinerman is a BYU graduate.

Dear Doc,

Great! I happened onto some information today, too, reverand. I met with Dr. John Heinerman today -- I don't know if you know him. He's a bona fide Luddite -- in SLC, and has had some contact with the Baptist community. He has an extensive private religion library -- thousands of volumes! It contains a section on Egyptology... also many rare books. If you like, I could give you his phone number and he might allow you to use his facilities for your research. I spent several hours looking at his library and things; he's an interesting person. He's LDS and he too thinks that Jews were in Egypt.

Thanks for keeping me informed. I hope the repetition of the prayers for me went well.

(Nothing has happened yet on this end :).

Readers interested in the Mormon space aliens (inhabitants of the moon), should see "People In Space" by John Heinerman, Ph.D., published by Cassandra Press, PO Box 868, San Rafael, CA 94915, in 1990. ISBN 0-9459946-08-02.

At 10:43 AM 1/8/2007, you wrote:
I will continue my search on Monday as I promised. By the way, regarding your recent e-mail (and some of the others before that), I would ask that you respect my beliefs just a little bit- if for nothing else, because of common decency.
--- I don't respect your beliefs. Given that, how can I play like I do? And don't lecture me on my use of English, OK.

Please don't use the name of the Lord as a curse word/expletive. Whether you believe or not makes no difference. You are personally and constantly insulting me by doing so- whether you believe you are insulting the Lord or not is between you and Him.
--- And don't lecture me on my use of English. I should respect what you have to say? Why don't You respect what I say, bub?
--- I see another WEASEL point coming. You can't continue in you research because of the form of my email and not because of its content ?

But please quit doing so in our communications. I don't ridicule you or your beliefs nor do I try to give affront to you
--- Oh and giving Your prayer team of 50 my particular private information and asking it to pray is not ridiculous in my eyes? Come on rev!! Be nice. What would jesus say?

where they are concerned. I don't agree with them, yes, and I am carrying on this "Jew thing" as you call it to try and show you why I don't believe them and why I believe what I do believe.
--- You've had a very long time to say why you believe in the Jewish habitation of Egypt, and so far I have not seen one shred of papyrus, even. You have had plenty of time, and only insulted me with the shit you sent so far. It was crap, reverand, and you know it; you are dishonest -- Though you tried not to be, as you say. I suppose it just comes naturally to you, you religious apologists. You lie and don't even know it. As Madalyn Murry O'Hair said, "Religion is a mental disease."

But I try to be very careful to not personally insult you or them. You have spewed out a constant stream of personal insults and accusations as well as using the name of my Lord in inappropriate ways when you know that it is extremely offensive to me.
-- I'm an atheist reverend, I have no Lord; if you imagine you have one, that's not my problem. Be nice. As for your disrespect for other religions, those you consider as false, it's much the same. Telling people that they will burn in hell it's the same. So don't lecture me about belittling others' beliefs. You support an organization that does that, and you do it yourself.
-- Don't be offended. Just consider the source. That's what I do when someone tries to insult me. Or pray that next time no offends will be taken. Pray that the lord will subrogate your [knee-jerk] free will so that next time you're insulted you won't even notice it. You should have done this a long time ago. I don't understand that you shamans who have this miraculous power of making miracles by praying -- why you don't do that. Let's see if praying works.

And I can no longer help but believe, because of their volume and frequency, that you are purposely doing so.
--- Believe me reverend, I've bitten my tongue many times and I talk to you as nicely as I can. You are offended by how I talk to you? I am offended by your actions. I am offended my tax dollar paying for your church -- I subsidize your religion! Is it just because you happen to be a believer in the supernatural that *I* have to help pay your way? It's time to tax the churches, which won't way willingly their fair share of the tax burden.

--- But I stray, sorry.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask that you show me the same common courtesy that I try to show you.
-- I prefer FACTS. Just provide the evidence which you say you have and be done with it. Shit or get off the pot. Why drag this out? Why trey to tick me with crap, saying, ok, it's good evidence -- oh here is a picture of a submerged circle and that proves that Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt. How stupid do you think that people are? Why do you try insult me so?

We can discuss this thing without making personal attacks on one another or on the other person's beliefs. This is the civilized thing to do and we can strive to be civilized by using common decency in our communications and interactions.
--- Take a look at the places in our correspondence where I "insulted" you. I don't insult people ex nihilo. I do it when they deserve it. I use words to punish. Thank God for the fact that people feel hurt by words. Thank god that people feel rewarded by words. Oh, sorry -- may I say thank god or is this also an affront to your imaginary Rule Of The Universe, who is kinda touchy about what some minuscule creature orbiting a dot in an insignificant arm of the Milky way in one of the trillions of Milky ways ? Excuse me reverend, I just can't get a good feel about how saying fuck you God, would offend that god! Perhaps if you got some perspective -- if you learned something about our universe, about history and biology (and Egyptology), perhaps you might see things a little like I do and not harp about syntax. Then you could concentrate on the MEANING instead of on the bad words.

--- I Have little respect for you -- and why should I have respect ? You have tried to trick me, lie to me, weasel, you; you are smug and intolerant of other peoples modes of expression, religion and weltanschauung. So, now you have an excuse to NOT find that elusive Egyptian Jew information -- you can say to yourself, oh, gee this fellow is not worthy and he's not of my religion.

Please try to be civilized. I believe that anyone can, should they choose to do so, be decent and civilized while discussing differences, any kind of differences, with another human being at any time and in regards to any subject. I believe that this also includes atheists. Or will you prove me wrong in this?

I am not trying to be unkind but we need to have some basis for our continued correspondence and/or interaction. Attacks are unnecessary. Disrespecting one another is unnecessary as well as counterproductive. Ridiculing or purposely bringing affront to one another, either personally or through affronts to their beliefs, is also not productive.
Therefore, I will continue with our communications but only as long as we do so in a civilized and respectful manner.

I have not yet been able to find the article on Moses that I mentioned to you in our original conversation. I will continue searching for it as I promised.

Doc
--- I claimed that there is no archeological evidence of the Jews having been in Egypt in pharaonic times. You say I'm wrong. If you had evidence, I'd have to seriously consider it and I'd change my mind.

Holy Moses, are you for real?
--- A story about Moses just won't do, reverend. We really ought to see some bones, graves, pottery, Synagogues -- REMNANTS!!! If your sunken Egyptian Chariot wheel can establish that Egyptians inhabited Egypt -- then we need to see something of that kind to think that Jews inhabited Egypt. My expectations are high, and from the tome of your jammering here it seems that a story about Moses ought to prove anything. Come on, reverend, don't try to INSULT out intelligence. I want meat. Where's the beef?

--- Are you going to show the GRAVES, BONES, PAPYRI, MONUMENTS, INSCRIPTIONS, FOUNDATIONS OF DWELLINGS, SYNAGOGUES, STREETS, OIL LAMS, MINORAs, MIDDENS, TOOLS, FISH HOOKS. ETC., or are you NOT going to show any of these tings -- YES or NO? How about just one?

I will also try to find a bit more substantial evidence on the internet for Moses as well as for the Jews in Egypt, as I also promised. (I have already sent you the secular info that I was able to find on Jesus, so that is finished.)

--- Your information of the Jews was such poor quality, misleading and insulting, what with all your weaseling and the crap-reading I had to do on account of the information you sent me. I'll think about Jesus after we finish the Israelites' Egyptian connection, if you don't mind. My suspicion is that now, knowing you better, you will try to give similarly dishonest references. But I'll reserve judgment. Perhaps some Roman contemporaries of Jesus made a note of His events. I hope so, else Christianity would be a fraud. Did a historical Jesus exist? A web article by Jim Walker

Those are the only two promises I made in our original conversation. Two things- the article on Moses (which I am still searching for) and any internet info that I could find on the Hebrews in Egypt.

(The info on Jesus was just a side-note in our conversation, but I did send you what secular info I could find on the net.) Ed: Oh-uh... I see another weasel in the bush.

Civilized human beings can discuss differences in a civil manner. So let's be civilized, okay?
--- OK. So what happened with the praying, pray tell -- nothing has happened. Did you instruct your prayer team that the result would be manifested soon or did you leave it up to the providence of the Lard? I'd like to see it happen soon, I'm preparing myself now and I don't have the patience forever to wait. Really, I'm serious. What's going on with the prayer team and the prayers?

I will contact you tomorrow should I find the article to which I had originally made reference. Otherwise, I will keep searching.
Doc

I still have not been able to find the original article on Moses in Egypt that I referred to the night of our original conversation. I am afraid it was lost when the college switched servers last year. The man who runs our website (email) didn't know that my e-mail, at that time, was not downloaded to my computer as it is now. I now use Outlook Express and it automatically downloads all mail to my computer from my two main accounts (personal and college accounts). When he switched us over, I lost hundreds of archived e-mails that were stored on the previous server. They are irretrievable. It took me months to reestablish contact with some of my students.
[Maybe the dog ate it -Ed.]

However, I did do some more research and came up with the following site. Interesting parallels between an ancient Egyptian papyrus and the book of Exodus. http://www.specialtyinterests.net/ipuwer.html
[This parallel becomes much less evident when not taken out of context, see here for a full translation of Papyrus Ipuwer, and here (Wikipedia) -Ed.]

There are many more sites concerning this papyrus-some pro and some con. You can access them by running a search using "Ipuwer Papyrus" on the internet. Google gave me dozens of hits. I looked at many and, as I said, some are pro and some are con concerning a connection with the Exodus. You can decide what you think the connection might or might not be.