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The L-word: Disingenuous




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Romney seems disingenuous

Mitt Romney, as a good Mormon, must pay 10 percent of his gross income to his church in Salt Lake City. He thus supports an organization that battalions thousands of missionaries throughout the world to explain to their audiences that they have the wrong religion and will not fare well in the hereafter unless they switch to the Mormon tithe-demanding religion. Yet today Romney espoused tolerance in matters of faith. Is he ... what do we call it these days -- "disingenuous"?

From Deseret News

Lamonte  Dec. 10, 2007
Harald - your assertion that anyone
[sic] in the Mormon church "must pay 10% of his gross income to the church" is an indication that you need to be educated in the requirements of church membership.

I have been a churchgoing Mormon for all of my life but I have not always paid tithing. No one ever sent me a bill or passed the plate in front of me at church. Yes, it is true that to be considered a member in good standing I must make the choice - on my own - to pay tithing but only the bishop knows that standing. As far as the person next to me is concerned I am a tithe payer. But even if I am not I can still attend church each week and learn the gospel, I can still have home teachers and be one as well and I can accept callings in my local ward. While I am reasonably certain that Mitt Romney is a full tithe payer, let's not make assumptions we aren't sure of. Now concerning your education about the Mormon Church,  I know some nice young men who would like to visit you...

Mitt Romney's underwear collar betrays his Mormon garments.
 Click to see the Nipple Protectors



Chad Dec. 10, 2007
Is it impossible to want to share your
faith with others and still be tolerant of their views? I think not.

Harald does not even attempt to be tolerant of the
mormonreligion, while insinuating that Romney lied about being tolerant himself. It seems to me that this letter is disingenuous - nah, let's use the real word - hypocritical.

Get It Right Dec. 10, 2007
The letter writer and some responders are clearly not well educated in religion.

Mormon doctrine would result in more people "going to Heaven" than almost any other religion's doctrines, since all but Satan's followers go to a place of wonderful glory. Sharing one's beliefs is just that, no more.

Mormons don't preach to anyone who doesn't want to listen, nor do they force anything on anyone. And from the beginning, Mormons have been more tolerant in letting others worship how, where, or what they may than most other Christian flavors--that's history. To this day, some refuse to return the favor.

Randy Dec. 10, 2007
All this Mitt Romney / Mormonism, Huckabee / Christianity, Giuliani / Catholicism, et al, makes it more evident than ever, that as much as possible, religion and politics should be clearly and unambiguously separate


  Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances


2-bits Dec. 10, 2007
This may be a little off-topic, but why do those outside the
faith seem to be the most offended by Tithing?

You rarely hear someone who is paying tithing complain, but you frequently hear those who don't complain bitterly about others having to
pay tithing. That just seems strange to me. You would think the people putting out 10% would be the ones complaining, not the other way around.

Basically it sounds to me like this guy is bitter about something. I don't know if it's the church or Romney or if he just didn't get his nap today.

Painting with Poop...

GWB Dec. 10, 2007
Lamonte, I have just one question for you.

Without paying a full tithe, can you hold a TEMPLE  RECOMMEND?

Are you being Dis
engenuous? You know very well that entrance to the Temple is considered the most sacred of rights in the church, but you must pay a full tithe to get the recommend from your Stake President.

I know it is fun to attack people who may express views we do not like, but to deliberately leave out a fact does no one a favor.

In my opinion, whether Mitt is a tithe payer and temple
attender is irrelevant to his campaign to become President of the US. The relevant question is "Is he the best man for the job."

His record as Governor (pro-choice) should be sufficient to make that decision, not what church he attends.

Lamonte Dec. 10, 2007
GWB - You should read my entire post before criticizing it. I clearly stated that to be considered "a member in good standing" one should make the choice to pay tithing. Yes, this means that to obtain a temple recommend you need to be a full tithe payer. I thought my earlier statement made that clear but, as you have pointed out, my using of "LDS terminology" may have been unclear. What was absolutely clear, however, is that paying a full tithe IS NOT required to be a member of the Mormon church, to
perticipate every week (and more) in church activities and to learn gospel truths that will help a person in so may ways in their lives. Tithing is not compulsory in the Mormon Church, as Harald seem to indicate, but it is a requirement for attendence at the temple, which is the ultimate goal of membership in the church.

Anonymous Dec. 10, 2007
Hey, if tithing to your church is important to you -go for it. Just don't put yourself on any sanctimonious pedestal or look down on your brothers and sisters who aren't as "worthy" as you.

I keep my tithing, method of worship, and spiritual business private - as Christ said to.

Agnostic Person Dec. 13, 2007
I can't argue with pure logic that Harald brings to our attention. I am an agnostic and throughout my life, I have had people from various religions try to convert me to their
faith. Their religious doctrine varies somewhat from religion to religion and each individual will mention that his/her faith is either somewhat more truthful than other religions or that his/her faith is the only true religion. This odd behavior from religious people is what prevents me from converting to a religion.

Barbara A. Lyman
Paying tithing is voluntary

Harald Illig's statement that Mitt Romney "must" pay tithing to the LDS Church is misinformed (Readers' Forum, Dec. 10). It is strictly a voluntary contribution. Tithing is an ancient principle and is not unique to the LDS Church.

God Will Fuck you Up

worm.gif (3649 bytes)Mormons do not tell others that they will not fare well in the afterlife unless they join The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think Mr. Illig must be confusing Mormons with other Christians who do state that people who don't believe as they do will go to hell. Mormons only ask others to add the truths of LDS Church doctrines to the truths they already have. Free agency is a core belief of the LDS Church. No one will be ever be forced to be a "Mormon."

Barbara A. Lyman
American Fork


Hello. My name is Barbara A. Lyman. I noticed that on "Mormon opinions ~ Tithing ~ Mitt Romney ~ disingenuous" you have quoted letters I wrote to Deseret News... Please remove the letters and the images from your site, and do not reprint any of my work again.  Continued
































































Grace Dec. 12, 2007
It is absolutely true that to be a member "in good standing," a member of the LDS church must pay tithing.

And if you believe that Mormons don't tell others that they won't "fare well" in the afterlife, I can only assume that you haven't had the experience of being an ex-Mormon living in Utah.

Lance Dec. 12, 2007
I think that while one can't say Mormons 'must' pay tithing one can say Mormons 'must' pay tithing if they wish to participate, for example, in family weddings or in other ordinances for which there is considerable social pressure to be involved in. Other religions do not require tithing to be in good standing and participate in religious ordinances, something which sets Mormonism apart.

Anonymous Dec. 12, 2007
So if you don't tithe, you don't get to go into the temple - right?

LINK: Temple ceremonies

Grace  Dec. 12, 2007
Good Standing:

You and I have a different understanding of what "good standing" is. I agree the members are not formally disciplined if they don't pay tithing, but they do have to pay tithing to participate in temple ordinances, or to be employed by the LDS Church.

Anonymous  Dec. 12, 2007
When you exclude loved ones from a marriage this is a travesty that only serves the organization.
LDS who cannot pay their tithe and who are excluded from the (marriage) ceremony are a sad example that the individual is less than the organization itself and that is tragic.

Muslim in Good Standing  Dec. 12, 2007

To be a Muslim in good standing requires an annual obligatory tithe (Zakat) of 2.5 percent of all your wealth, not just "increase" as the Mormons pay. Zakat is one of the five pillars of Sunni Islam.

Several Protestant megachurches, notably Saddleback in Orange County, Californa and Willow Creek outside Chicago, require a 10 percent tithing as a condition of membership.

Also, it's worth pointing out that in at least a half-dozen European countries the "church tax" is still collected by either local or national governments.

Jew in Good Standing  Dec. 13, 2007

Jews in good standing also pay a tithe of a sort, called Tzedaka, which is usually translated as charity, but it strongly connotes the Jewish idea of justice.

Tzedaka is a remnant of the old temple tax. In the years after the temple was destroyed and the 10% tithe to support the priests and Levites was suspended, Tzedaka was instituted.

Because they think of it less as a voluntary donation and more as self-taxation, it matters less to the Jews that a donation is "made from the heart" than that the donation is made. Interestingly, C.S. Lewis made a very similar argument when it comes to Christian Charitable giving.

In fact to make a donation that comes from the heart but is less generous than it should be would be considered an act of selfishness by some Jews. A consequence is that Jews frequently attach their names when they make large gifts. While it may seem immodest to some Christians, to Jews it seems like an appropriate way to keep the feet of rich Jews to the fire.

Barbara A. Lyman     March 18, 2004

Some rights are deadly

Kim Grandy, president of the National Organization of Women, worries that the right to an abortion guaranteed by Roe v. Wade will be eroded because Melissa Rowland has been charged with murder for the stillborn birth of one of her twins because she refused to undergo a Caesarean section.

If Kim Grandy's mother had exercised rights guaranteed by Roe v. Wade, Kim would not have been quoted in the newspaper. She would not exist.

Barbara A. Lyman
American Fork

4-letter word offensive    Sunday, May 31, 2009
worm.gif (3649 bytes)
I'm sure I won't be the only reader responding to your article on profanity. I couldn't believe the first sentence about "beating the crap out of ..."

Perhaps you don't think this word qualifies as profanity. That is inexcusable. Especially considering the subject of the article. If this word was used to shock those who read the piece, it is no different than screenwriters who put such words into movie and television scripts.

Barbara A. Lyman
American Fork, UT.

Barb employs two of the hallmarks of the self-righteous letter. First, she says she’s sure she won’t be the only one to complain — in other words, “Surely my opinion is widely held! Surely I am not in the fringe!” Then she says that if you don’t think “crap” is profanity, that’s “inexcusable” — in other words, “If you disagree with me, YOU are the wrong one, because this is a black-and-white issue with a clear-cut right answer, and I’m right.” 
Eric D. Snider's Blog

♫ God Will Fuck you Up
The D**** Song

Utah Tourist Trap: Cove Fort
Newspaper Censorship
Mormon Ins. Salesmen


     I’m currently a little bit annoyed. Not for the reason I’m about to list.

    The Deseret News editorial page is always full of…anomaly. I figure Valentines Day is a good a day as any to talk about Sex Ed, so Consider the following:

    In “Sex-ed bill removes birth-control ban” (Feb. 10), Action Council executive director, Melissa Bird, states that “research shows the majority of Utah’s high school students become sexually active before graduation.”

    I would like Ms. Bird to publish the research she mentions. She needs to include the dates of the research, its source, the funders, the size of the studies and the qualifications and experience of the researchers.

    I know plenty of high schoolers who don’t date or who date very rarely and will doubt Ms. Bird’s claim until she prints hard evidence to support it.

Barbara A. Lyman
American Fork

 Link  Facts on Sex Education in the United States

Barbara A. Lyman  8-15-09

I'm a conservative so my comments have nothing to do with my or your political beliefs. [sic].

I listened to your show today but turned it off after just a few moments. Why? It was because I was appalled at the strident and rude way you spoke to the man who called in.

It seems that radio hosts feel that this abrasive and nasty tone of voice somehow makes them sound conservative with a capital "C."

I know you are LDS or at least familiar with the Church because you graduated from BYU with your law degree and you, therefore, know that we have been told for thousands of years to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Please take a quiet moment and imagine that Christ was standing next to you while you broadcasted your show today. I think you may very well feel ashamed and uncomfortable that He listened to you verbally abuse the man who called in.

Please be kinder and more respectful of those who use a little bit of their day to call in and make it possible for you to have a radio show.

I won't listen to your show again.

Barbara A. Lyman
American Fork, Utah

Posted by Barbara Lyman, Saturday August 15th, 2009

2004: Honorable Mention, Springville Museum of Art "Spiritual and Religious Art"



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X-Originating-IP: []
From: Eric Lyman <>
To: <>
Subject: Please remove my paintings, photograph, and comments from your website
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 00:47


My name is Barbara A. Lyman.

 I noticed that on "Mormon opinions ~ Tithing ~ Mitt Romney ~ disingenuous" ( you have quoted letters I wrote to Deseret News. On the same page, you have used my copyrighted paintings and photograph* without permission. While I appreciate your giving me an additional venue to express myself, I would have preferred you had asked my permission. Please remove the letters and the images from your site, and do not reprint any of my work again.

Thank you,
Barbara A. Lyman

* These are the URLs to the files you have used without permission:,, and


 More letters

From: Eric Lyman <>
To: <>
Subject: thank you for removing one of my paintings
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:02

Hello. This is Barbara Lyman again. I sincerely thank you for so quickly removing the painting of mine that used to be at the top of "Mormon opinions ~ Tithing ~ Mitt Romney ~ disingenuous" ( I am puzzled, though: why have you chosen to replace it with another* of my images that I asked you to delete from your website? You are kind to advertise my artwork this way, and I am flattered that you enjoy my work, but I still would rather you remove all images for which I hold the copyright, including my photograph**. And, again, please remove my comments; I stand by everything I have said in them, but you have printed them without asking my permission.

Thank you,
Barbara A. Lyman


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